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Old 07-09-2010, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Another deflection...

*katjonjj shrugs her shoulders and goes outside to lay in the beautiful God given sun*
Yes, inane comments/accusations tend to get deflected and run off like water off a ducks back.

Did you really think I might have been interested in discussing your "you are a flip-flopper" comment?

If you bring nothing to the table, you don't usually get much in return.
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Old 07-09-2010, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,670,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, inane comments/accusations tend to get deflected and run off like water off a ducks back.

Did you really think I might have been interested in discussing your "you are a flip-flopper" comment?

If you bring nothing to the table, you don't usually get much in return.
If you didn't want to have a discussion you could have just said so...
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Old 07-09-2010, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,670,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Again, you need to study the basics and learn what it means to be born again and what it means to be a 'believer'.

I thought when I said "Satan believes God exist, but he is not saved" would give you a hint, but obviously you didn't get it.
So now to believe doesn't make a believer?

Oh... so Satan believes God exists but if someone down here believes God exists it is not good enough? I thought you said all you have to do is believe to be saved.. or maybe that was Mike... either way perhaps you can explain what you mean by believe then..

Is it that Satan is not under the same belief rules that humans are? After all he is superhuman... right?

So then what exactly do you have to believe in?

I guess we don't have much common ground. I was hopeful.. and I guess I still am hopeful.
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Old 07-09-2010, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Thanks Legoman - Finally someone had the time to do this...now let's look at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Sciotamicks, I posted this in the other thread, and you didn't address any of it other than to say (I paraphrase) "you're wrong and I'm right".

We do that don't we?

Heb 6:17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath
Quote:
Pay attention to the bolded words. God's purpose, and the nature of that purpose, are unchanging. God does not change how He acts toward you on the other side of death.
Who are the heirs? The seed of Abraham appears to be the context of this passage, and the resurrection of the dead.....namely...Israel.

Quote:
Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Quote:
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

So we see God's purpose and character here - it is preferable to have the wicked turn from his way, and if he does, the LORD will have mercy on him.The question is, will all turn to the LORD?:

Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,
Isa 56:1 us saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation [is] near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

Isaiah 55 is pointing to Christ...1st advent.

What say you of verse 24?

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

God charges Israel to act!

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?

18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

First advent.

Verse 3 But thou [art] holy, [O thou] that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

As we keep going here...it is obvious this plan did in fact become fulfilled in Christ...His sacrifice to the house of Israel was accomplished.
But let's keep going....

24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him but when he cried unto him, he heard.

25 My praise [shall be] of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him

27 All the ends of the world ERETZ shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

THE “FAMILIES OF THE EARTH” BEING BLESSED IN ABRAHAM

Abraham:

Gen 12:2,3 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and will curse him that curseth thee, and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and a mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

To Isaac:

Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with three, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath that I sware unto Abraham thy father.

To Jacob:

Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

To Israel:

Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

The major source of error in these blessing passages is what we mean by certain words. We have different words translated as earth and the ground, countries and the land, as also occurs with the words translated nations, families and kindreds. Although an extensive technical Hebrew language exposition is beyond the scope of this paper, there are things that need to be pointed out.

Originally Abraham was told to go from his father’s house unto an eretz that God would show him. If eretz here is the whole Earth, then Abraham must have gone to another planet! Abraham was told all The ‘Earth’ which thou seeth, I will give thee. He was told to arise and walk through the earth. Did he walk across the whole globe? So we have to ask if this ‘earth’ is the whole earth or the Promised Land. It is not all the ‘eretzs of all the races on earth. Abraham was told to get himself out of his present earth and to go to THE earth. There are many references that give confirmation of the meaning. THE earth does not mean the whole globe, but rather that portion belonging to the particular area or person under consideration. In the consideration of Psalm 22, it is the Holy Land - the Erets Yisrael

The promise to Abraham was to “ALL” nations without any exceptions.
“All” cannot include those who are cursed and those God says that He hates.
Hence “all” means all the nations of Israel.

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel

Quote:
Furthermore we see God's plan for Christ was to make "the many" righteous - the same "the many" who were made sinners in Adam. This includes the wicked who have died, for otherwise it would not be the same "the many" in Adam.

Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
The Many here is not the wicked, but only sinners, whom Christ came to redeem....the many.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

In Romans 11:27, God quotes from the Old Testament as He explains why a remnant from national Israel was chosen by grace to come into the body of Christ. Romans 11:27: "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." Hebrews 12:24 declares: "Jesus the mediator of the new covenant." Hebrews 13:20 speaks of the "the blood of the everlasting covenant." These references to the covenant can be speaking only of Christ, who went to the cross so that God's covenant of grace or salvation might become effective for all who would believe on Him.

When Jesus stood on the shore of the River Jordan, John the Baptist looked at Him and said: "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). Christ came as the Lamb to confirm the covenant.

Going back to Daniel 9:27, God indicates that He shall confirm the covenant with many. The many for whom Christ came to confirm His covenant of salvation are those He came to save. Matthew 1:21: "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 20:28: "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."

So it is pretty clear who the MANY are.

Quote:
There is the resurrection (two of them) in which this will happen:
Quote:

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked

John 5:29 ... those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Quote:
So we see there are two resurrections. Interesting note: these resurrections are not based on who chose Christ, but on "those who did good deeds" and "those who committed the evil deeds". But the point for now is that all are resurrected - all rise from the dead. This in itself tells us that all are made alive. For that is what resurrected means - to be made alive (see 1 Cor 15:22-28 where Jesus makes all alive).
Legoman...yes indeed they are all resurrected beased on their works, but it is very clear as to where those not FOUND WRITTEN in the BOOK of LIFE are destined......this resurrection is clear that it occurs when:

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Christ consummated this one at His death and recurrection. The Old Covenant was "vanishing away" quickly. AS it rightyly did.

The "First resurrection" began here:

Matt 27:52, 53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:27,28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

His second appearance was precisely that resurrection of Israel, as noted in Revelation 20, which were all under the law, and were judged according to their works.

Jer 25:14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

2 Cor 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2 Tim 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

Rev 18:6 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Quote:
But we see the wicked - those who commited evil - go to the resurrection of judgment. What is the purpose of this judgment?

Isaiah 26:9 For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

Now before someone points to Isa 26:10 and says "look the wicked don't learn righteousness", pay attention to what verse 10 actually says:

Isaiah 26:10 Though the wicked is shown favor,
He does not learn righteousness; ...

Make sure you understand what this is saying. The wicked do not learn righteousness by being shown favor. No. But the wicked (in fact the whole world) do learn righteousness when God's judgements come in the earth, just as verse 9 says.
Verse 9 is speaking of Israel being shown rightouesness through their judgements. Also..in verse 10 please show the whwole verse which cements the theme:

Let favour be shewed to the wicked, [yet] will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

Eisegesis legoman.

Quote:
Like Phaze says above, there is no expiration of salvation at death. People will point to Hebrews 9:27 and say "look its too late after death because then you are judged". While it is true you are judged after death, it is that judgment that will cause you to learn righteousness.
Wrong. The judgements that are seen on earth, have always brought Israel to the Lord....always....except...EXCEPT for the war from 67-70 AD.
Bad scholarship here...by the both of you. Cherry picking IMO.
I will leave that one alone, because it is quite obvious the failure in discernment here.

Quote:
So we see that God's purpose and character never changes. His intent is for all men to be made righteous, and this will happen through Christ, through His judgments. This will be achieved and testified to in due time (1 Tim 2:3-6).
His intent was sealed in Christ for Israel, Jew and Gentile grafted into the Holy Lump. Nothing else.

Quote:
Now since God will have all men to be saved, will reconcile all people, will teach all people righteousness through His judgments, then by simple deduction we know the lake of fire is not an eternal torture chamber. The lake of fire is the refining (spiritual) fire that judges, refines and saves the unbelievers. Just as believers are saved "so as by fire".
You deduced poorly IMO, and in the opinion of every commentary that the Christian congregation has on these subjects, other than Universalism. We have seen here so far, not only eisegesis, but cherry picking verse to support doctrine when the directive application are dealing with living here on earth, recieving God's judgements, and the resurrection of the dead. You tied these two concepts and married them, a very, very bad move.

You did what we call in the exegete world, "word proofing" which can be helpful at times, but can also be VERY detrimental to the message is being conveyed in the Holy Writ.

I wil address your next segment of the post following this one.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 07-09-2010 at 08:31 PM..
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Old 07-09-2010, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,045 posts, read 34,328,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So now to believe doesn't make a believer?

Oh... so Satan believes God exists but if someone down here believes God exists it is not good enough? I thought you said all you have to do is believe to be saved.. or maybe that was Mike... either way perhaps you can explain what you mean by believe then..

Is it that Satan is not under the same belief rules that humans are? After all he is superhuman... right?

So then what exactly do you have to believe in?

I guess we don't have much common ground. I was hopeful.. and I guess I still am hopeful.
You ask: "What exactly do you have to believe in?" If you still don't know the answer after hundreds of debates here, then there is nothing else I can tell you to make you undersand. I think you need to read the Bible and pray that God will reveal it to you.
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Old 07-10-2010, 02:00 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,670,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You ask: "What exactly do you have to believe in?" If you still don't know the answer after hundreds of debates here, then there is nothing else I can tell you to make you undersand. I think you need to read the Bible and pray that God will reveal it to you.
I know what it is that you have to believe in... I was asking you in order to understand where you are coming from. It's not a trick question.

What exactly do you have to believe in that is different from Satan's belief in God and if you didn't you would be burned forever in a lake of fire?

What criteria is there to ENSURE that one won't end up in the lake of fire forever burning?

I think it's important to be able to judge where one stands on the matter in the very least.
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Old 07-10-2010, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
What exactly do you have to believe in that is different from Satan's belief in God and if you didn't you would be burned forever in a lake of fire?

What criteria is there to ENSURE that one won't end up in the lake of fire forever burning?
If you still don't know the answer after hundreds of debates here, then there is nothing else I can tell you to make you undersand. I think you need to read the Bible and pray that God will reveal it to you.
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Old 07-10-2010, 08:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
If you still don't know the answer after hundreds of debates here, then there is nothing else I can tell you to make you undersand. I think you need to read the Bible and pray that God will reveal it to you.
Hey Finn . . . in your haste you forgot your ball,bat and glove. Of course kat knows exactly what must be "believed on" . . . she is trying to understand what YOU THINK MUST be believed among all the irrelevant and inconsequential "stuff" in the various denominations and sects within Christianity (actually Bibleanity and Churchianity). That is what discussion are for . . . to clarify our positions.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 07-10-2010 at 09:15 AM..
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Old 07-10-2010, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Hey Finn . . . in your haste you forgot your ball,bat and glove.
See, that's the problem. She wants to play games, but I don't come here for that reason. She knows exactly what I believe.

You know people are playing games when they ask teen-age atheist questions such as "if Satan believes God exists, then why isn't he saved".

A person is saved through faith in Christ, and quite obviously Satan does not have this faith, so he is not saved even though he believes God exists. It is not enough to believe in existence of God. And no, Satan or any unbelieving person will not be tortured into belief after their deaths.
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Old 07-10-2010, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
See, that's the problem. She wants to play games, but I don't come here for that reason. She knows exactly what I believe.
I am quite intelligent but you give me too much credit. I am not trying to play games. I just want to understand why belief in God isn't enough for salvation.

Quote:
You know people are playing games when they ask teen-age atheist questions such as "if Satan believes God exists, then why isn't he saved".
How is that teen-age? I wonder why Christians state that all you have to do is believe but then when someone asks why satan isn't saved if he believes, you turn and say that it is the wrong type of belief . Perhaps there are others on the fence out there who are afraid they will be ridiculed for asking such an elementary question. Perhaps this post will be first in Google when "Is satan saved?" is typed in... You never know. I can't be the only one who has wondered about this! Right?

Well I am asking what exactly you do have to believe in in order to be saved. I have actually asked this question of preachers and they wouldn't answer either. To them it is just a given that satan can believe and not be saved.

Quote:
A person is saved through faith in Christ, and quite obviously Satan does not have this faith, so he is not saved even though he believes God exists.
Faith is (according to Webster's): Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity; reliance on testimony.

Jesus' testimony was acknowledged by evil spirits wasn't it? Jesus' testimony was what?

Belief and faith are similar so I don't see how satan can NOT have faith if he believes that Jesus is Christ and God is God. If he trembles at the mention of Christ (as I was taught in church) then I would have to say that satan has MUCH more faith in God's power and Christ's testimony that 90% of the human population... So what is it that one must believe in or have faith in other than Christ's testimony and God's existence in order to be saved from burning in hell forever?
Quote:
It is not enough to believe in existence of God. And no, Satan or any unbelieving person will not be tortured into belief after their deaths.
No I understand that it is their NON-belief that they will be punished for by torture forever.

So my question is asked without prejudice or malice. I simply don't understand the difference (to GOD) between Satan's fear, belief, faith... and the believer which is why I asked in the first place.

Perhaps I should start another thread or is this all still on topic?

BTW thanks Mystic for trying to help clarify.
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