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Old 07-11-2010, 03:01 AM
 
Location: Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
And, this can be changed on a daily basis by saying YES!!! Answer the door!! He's calling all, ALL!! His desiring that none should perish....BUT TURN FROM THEIR WICKED WAYS!! Turn, open the door!! He's not a thief, He's not going to "force" His way in. You hear Him knocking right? Well?

Even the vilest of sinner can TURN!! Even, the worst of the worst, can TURN!! But, because of the hardness of one's heart, some won't....but some love their darkness and revel in it........
Extortion.

Blessings,
brian
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Old 07-12-2010, 07:39 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,774,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Actually the need for faith in Christ is mentioned some 200 times in the Bible, and Christ could have spent his time preaching only love for the neighbor and nothing else, but he did not. He made sure he repeated the message of salvation and need for faith over and over to made sure people understood and would not pay the price for rejection in hell. Sometimes he said using plain language, and sometimes he used parables.
I never said anything about the need for faith.

To part in red: No he did not. He never said people would burn in hell forever if they did not believe He died and rose again for their sins. He did not say that if they did not believe in Him that his sacrifice would not free them from their sins. If I'm wrong, show the verses.
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Old 07-12-2010, 07:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
BHFT,

He did explain that very thing, in multiple places.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Where did he say this: "If you DO NOT BELIEVE that my death and resurrection frees you from you sins, then it will in fact, NOT free you from your sins."

Sciotamicks couldn't answer this either.
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Old 07-13-2010, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I never said anything about the need for faith.
No, you don't believe it, but Jesus said it over, and over, and over.

Anyone who claims He didn't say it shows wanton disregard for the scriptures.

Quote:
To part in red: No he did not. He never said people would burn in hell forever if they did not believe He died and rose again for their sins.
Here He talks about what happens to the unrighteous.

Matthew 25:46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I don't know how you can say he never said it. He talked about it a lot. Again, anyone who claims He didn't say it shows wanton disregard for the scriptures
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Thanks Legoman - Finally someone had the time to do this...now let's look at it.





Who are the heirs? The seed of Abraham appears to be the context of this passage, and the resurrection of the dead.....namely...Israel.



Isa 56:1 us saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation [is] near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

Isaiah 55 is pointing to Christ...1st advent.

What say you of verse 24?

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

God charges Israel to act!

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?

18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

First advent.

Verse 3 But thou [art] holy, [O thou] that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

As we keep going here...it is obvious this plan did in fact become fulfilled in Christ...His sacrifice to the house of Israel was accomplished.
But let's keep going....

24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him but when he cried unto him, he heard.

25 My praise [shall be] of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him

27 All the ends of the world ERETZ shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

THE “FAMILIES OF THE EARTH” BEING BLESSED IN ABRAHAM

Abraham:

Gen 12:2,3 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and will curse him that curseth thee, and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and a mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

To Isaac:

Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with three, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath that I sware unto Abraham thy father.

To Jacob:

Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

To Israel:

Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

The major source of error in these blessing passages is what we mean by certain words. We have different words translated as earth and the ground, countries and the land, as also occurs with the words translated nations, families and kindreds. Although an extensive technical Hebrew language exposition is beyond the scope of this paper, there are things that need to be pointed out.

Originally Abraham was told to go from his father’s house unto an eretz that God would show him. If eretz here is the whole Earth, then Abraham must have gone to another planet! Abraham was told all The ‘Earth’ which thou seeth, I will give thee. He was told to arise and walk through the earth. Did he walk across the whole globe? So we have to ask if this ‘earth’ is the whole earth or the Promised Land. It is not all the ‘eretzs of all the races on earth. Abraham was told to get himself out of his present earth and to go to THE earth. There are many references that give confirmation of the meaning. THE earth does not mean the whole globe, but rather that portion belonging to the particular area or person under consideration. In the consideration of Psalm 22, it is the Holy Land - the Erets Yisrael

The promise to Abraham was to “ALL” nations without any exceptions.
“All” cannot include those who are cursed and those God says that He hates.
Hence “all” means all the nations of Israel.

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel



The Many here is not the wicked, but only sinners, whom Christ came to redeem....the many.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

In Romans 11:27, God quotes from the Old Testament as He explains why a remnant from national Israel was chosen by grace to come into the body of Christ. Romans 11:27: "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." Hebrews 12:24 declares: "Jesus the mediator of the new covenant." Hebrews 13:20 speaks of the "the blood of the everlasting covenant." These references to the covenant can be speaking only of Christ, who went to the cross so that God's covenant of grace or salvation might become effective for all who would believe on Him.

When Jesus stood on the shore of the River Jordan, John the Baptist looked at Him and said: "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). Christ came as the Lamb to confirm the covenant.

Going back to Daniel 9:27, God indicates that He shall confirm the covenant with many. The many for whom Christ came to confirm His covenant of salvation are those He came to save. Matthew 1:21: "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 20:28: "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."

So it is pretty clear who the MANY are.



Legoman...yes indeed they are all resurrected beased on their works, but it is very clear as to where those not FOUND WRITTEN in the BOOK of LIFE are destined......this resurrection is clear that it occurs when:

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Christ consummated this one at His death and recurrection. The Old Covenant was "vanishing away" quickly. AS it rightyly did.

The "First resurrection" began here:

Matt 27:52, 53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:27,28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

His second appearance was precisely that resurrection of Israel, as noted in Revelation 20, which were all under the law, and were judged according to their works.

Jer 25:14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

2 Cor 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2 Tim 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

Rev 18:6 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:



Verse 9 is speaking of Israel being shown rightouesness through their judgements. Also..in verse 10 please show the whwole verse which cements the theme:

Let favour be shewed to the wicked, [yet] will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

Eisegesis legoman.



Wrong. The judgements that are seen on earth, have always brought Israel to the Lord....always....except...EXCEPT for the war from 67-70 AD.
Bad scholarship here...by the both of you. Cherry picking IMO.
I will leave that one alone, because it is quite obvious the failure in discernment here.



His intent was sealed in Christ for Israel, Jew and Gentile grafted into the Holy Lump. Nothing else.



You deduced poorly IMO, and in the opinion of every commentary that the Christian congregation has on these subjects, other than Universalism. We have seen here so far, not only eisegesis, but cherry picking verse to support doctrine when the directive application are dealing with living here on earth, recieving God's judgements, and the resurrection of the dead. You tied these two concepts and married them, a very, very bad move.

You did what we call in the exegete world, "word proofing" which can be helpful at times, but can also be VERY detrimental to the message is being conveyed in the Holy Writ.

I wil address your next segment of the post following this one.
Thanks for your response sciota. Suffice it to say we see it differently, and I believe you have gone off on a tangent from the points I was making.


Heb 6:17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath

I posted Hebrews 6:17 to show that God's purpose does not change. The point being, if God's purpose and desire is to save all people, then that purpose does not change after one dies. I realize you don't believe God's purpose and desire is to save all people. IMHO this is one of the errors in your foundation.

And we see in Eze 18:23 that God does not get pleasure from the death of anyone. That is in line with God's purpose and desire to save all people. You ask about Eze 18:24... yes if someone does turn from righteousness to wickedness they will die. Yet we were just told in the previous verses (Eze 18:21-22) that if someone turns from wickedness to righteousness they will live! Death is not the end. There is a resurrection. We can debate if it means "spritual" or "physical" death, but in the end all are made alive - both spirtually and physically.

Regarding Romans 5:18-19, it seems to me you are confusing "the many" (which is referring to all people - all who died in Adam), with Israel or the elect. IMHO your preterism confuses the issue here.

Regarding Isaiah 26:9-10, the point is that the purpose of God's judgments is to teach people righteousness. You can debate that "inhabitants of the earth" doesn't mean "all inhabitants of the earth" if you want. The rest of verse 10 doesn't change that either, I don't see your point. The wicked do not learn righteousness from God's favor - but they learn it from God's righteous judgments. That is why God's judgments are righteous - they teach it. They teach righteousness.

Regarding Psalm 22:27 not being all people "all the ends of the earth", "all the families of the nations", etc. You only need to believe that to fit your theology. Other places confirm that every knee bows, every tongue confesses, every creature worships God and praises His name. Though I don't think you believe that either. While it is true that "world" does not necessarily mean all people or all things in the world - it usually does, UNLESS context demands it cannot (For example if I say I am going to see the world - then I'm clearly exaggerating as a figure of speech -- or also perhaps in your example about Abraham going to another planet). But a statement like: God is the savior of the world and all people. Or all the ends of the earth will turn to the Lord. There is no reason to not believe those plain statements.

God is love, God is holy, God is just. Therefore there is no reason to believe that the lake of fire is some form of eternal torture chamber (either spiritual or physical). It is far more reasonable to understand that it is spiritual fire for refinement, just as all the spritual fire mentioned in the bible is.

IMHO sciota, for whatever reason, you want to see the view that people will be tormented forever, and therefore are forcing/interpreting the scripture to say that, when a much more reasonable (and loving - in character with God) explanation exists.
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Legoman....Malachi 3 is an earthly purification of the SONS of LEVI...why is it that you ascribe this to a post mortem situation?

And thanks for your post...even though I disagree with it.

God is Holy, God is Just, But He also NEVER changes.
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Sciotamicks couldn't answer this either.

Again...did Christ say He would die and be resurrected?

I will answer. Yes He did.

Did Christ says "whosoever believes in me, shall inherit eternal life."

Yes He did.

Did He not herald to the rich man in the fire that these [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me"?

Yes He did.

You can make up your minds now, whether you should believe what he said or not is true, or you can pass over this truth again so your paradigm can agree with you.

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Old 07-13-2010, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post

I don't know how you can say he never said it. He talked about it a lot. Again, anyone who claims He didn't say it shows wanton disregard for the scriptures
Exactly.
Well said, and Christ talked about HELL more than anyone in the scripture.
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Legoman....Malachi 3 is an earthly purification of the SONS of LEVI...why is it that you ascribe this to a post mortem situation?
sciota, that is not the relevant question here. The question is, why do you think God's fire is used to purify the sons of Levi, but elsewhere it is used to endlessly torment and torture? GOD's purpose does not change. The purpose for His fires does not change.

Quote:
And thanks for your post...even though I disagree with it.

God is Holy, God is Just, But He also NEVER changes.
No problem. And I agree with your last statement:

God is Holy, God is Just, and He never changes, AND HE IS LOVE TOO.
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
sciota, that is not the relevant question here. The question is, why do you think God's fire is used to purify the sons of Levi, but elsewhere it is used to endlessly torment and torture? GOD's purpose does not change. The purpose for His fires does not change.
Earthly and heavenly judgements are two completely differnet things...one corporeal, the other...incorporeal.
We are baptized with fire....nations fall and are conquered...destroyed....priestly lines are deduced to only the faithful...you are mixing up themes....

This purification is a symbolic representation of an earthly judgement. Nothing else. Hell, on the other hand, is a punitive action for those that deny Christ...something only transcendant for the soul after their earthly life.

You are incorrect.
The pupose of His fire does change...for the righteous or for the wicked.
You mix up themes...common amongst UR.

Quote:
God is Holy, God is Just, and He never changes, AND HE IS LOVE TOO.
His mercy extends only to those who obey and fear Him.
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