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Old 07-13-2010, 12:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Earthly and heavenly judgements are two completely differnet things...one corporeal, the other...incorporeal.
We are baptized with fire....nations fall and are conquered...destroyed....priestly lines are deduced to only the faithful...you are mixing up themes....

This purification is a symbolic representation of an earthly judgement. Nothing else. Hell, on the other hand, is a punitive action for those that deny Christ...something only transcendant for the soul after their earthly life.

You are incorrect.
The pupose of His fire does change...for the righteous or for the wicked.
You mix up themes...common amongst UR.



His mercy extends only to those who obey and fear Him.
All will fear (revere) Him one day sciota, scripture tells us in several places. Then it will be God's pleasure to save those that revere Him (which will be everyone).

God's purpose does not change in that He wants to save people while alive but then roast them for eternity after a person's earthly death.

But this probably comes back to your belief that God doesn't want to save everyone. So I suppose with that view God doesn't change - if He didn't want to save you in this life, He certainly won't want to save you in the next... but your premise that God doesn't want to save everyone is fatally flawed.
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
His mercy extends only to those who obey and fear Him.
In it's basic form this is false and a scriptural contradiction based on traditional teaching.

First and foremost if it is even possible for an unbeliever to come to believe then God has extended his mercy to those who do not obey and fear him, for without that mercy, such would be IMPOSSIBLE.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:30 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,770,916 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, you don't believe it, but Jesus said it over, and over, and over.

Anyone who claims He didn't say it shows wanton disregard for the scriptures.



Here He talks about what happens to the unrighteous.

Matthew 25:46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I don't know how you can say he never said it. He talked about it a lot. Again, anyone who claims He didn't say it shows wanton disregard for the scriptures
Once again, you did what you accuse others of doing. You just stated that I don't think faith is needed when I SAID NOTHING LIKE THAT! This is a sin, Finn.

As for Matthew 25, you failed miserably in trying to use that to prove Jesus said you have to believe that He died for your sins in order to be freed from those sins. This passage says they are told to depart BECAUSE of what? Read it Finn. (Hint: It's after the word, "For," which means "because" in this sentence.


41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,015 posts, read 34,320,621 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Once again, you did what you accuse others of doing. You just stated that I don't think faith is needed when I SAID NOTHING LIKE THAT! This is a sin, Finn.
Do you not believe in UR? Well, faith is not required in the world of URs. Everyone will be converted after death whether they like it or not. That is the core teaching of UR.

PS Your comment word for word: I never said anything about the need for faith.

Quote:
As for Matthew 25, you failed miserably in trying to use that to prove Jesus said
You asked me to show you a verse where Jesus talked about eternal punishment and I showed you. Don't try to change the topic. Besides, I quoted Matthew 25:46 and you pretend I quoted Matthew 25:41. Why?
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,433,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

roast them for eternity
You mean just roast them a little while, according to UR
Seems to toss out the "Love" only factor.

Quote:
But this probably comes back to your belief that God doesn't want to save everyone.
Again...you impose a paradigm that exists no where in the scripture.

Quote:
if He didn't want to save you in this life,
Now you are getting somewhere.
It boils down to this, WHAT PRAISE WILL HE GET OUT OF IT

And no, my concept is not flawed, your is, as mine agrees with the Holy Spirit, yours, does not.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,433,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
In it's basic form this is false and a scriptural contradiction based on traditional teaching.

First and foremost if it is even possible for an unbeliever to come to believe then God has extended his mercy to those who do not obey and fear him, for without that mercy, such would be IMPOSSIBLE.
For as the heaven is high above the earth, [so] great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

But the mercy of the LORD [is] from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children

The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.

And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.

I guess the Bible disagrees with you again.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You mean just roast them a little while, according to UR
Seems to toss out the "Love" only factor.
You have to be joking. UR doesn't believe in a physical "roasting" if that's what you mean. Its SPIRITUAL FIRE (aka trials, tribulations, judgments, experiences) which produces good character. But even if it was physical fire meant for nothing but pain and torment, burning for a finite time is nothing compared to burning in torment for eternity. Do you not see how cavalier your attitude is to those you believe who will be in agony forever?

Quote:
Again...you impose a paradigm that exists no where in the scripture.



Now you are getting somewhere.
It boils down to this, WHAT PRAISE WILL HE GET OUT OF IT

And no, my concept is not flawed, your is, as mine agrees with the Holy Spirit, yours, does not.
No, mine agrees with the Holy Spirit, and yours, does not!

Come now, such an appeal means nothing. At least you are now admitting that you think God doesn't want to save everyone. You claim "such a paradigm" [God wanting to save all] does not exist in scripture. Have you not been reading all the scripture that gets posted here? It is only because of your "Israel only" paradigm that you reinterpret scripture to suit your doctrine. The "Israel only" paradigm is not about salvation, it is about understanding. They are the first to understand and experience God's plan. The elect get a glimpse of God's plan, and are used by God for His purposes in bringing the rest of mankind into salvation.

It boggles my mind that you think it boils down to "WHAT PRAISE WILL HE GET OUT OF IT". It boggles my mind that you think God is loving because He chose to save some and leave the rest to burn. It boggles my mind you think God doesn't want to save everyone. And given that, It boggles my mind that you think you were "lucky" enough to be chosen to be saved (as I've seen you say in another thread).

Sciotamicks, take a step back. Look at the big picture. If it is just about getting praise, what praise will God get by burning people forever? How is that glorious? How is that justice? I hope you would agree that God knew and planned all this to happen. So why did God plan to burn people forever? Is that really a loving and glorious act? Try to use some reason and compassion in your thinking here. That is what God wants you to do.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:25 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,837,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
For as the heaven is high above the earth, [so] great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

But the mercy of the LORD [is] from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children

The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.

And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.

I guess the Bible disagrees with you again.

Nope, it disagrees with you.

First the verses you supplied do not say "only" to those who fear and obey. It doesn't say it, because that is not only who it applies to.




1Ti 1:15 Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom am I'.

1Ti 1:16 But therefore was I shown mercy, that in me, the foremost, Jesus Christ should be displaying all His patience, towardfor a pattern of those who are about to be believing on Him into life eonian.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:28 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
4,232 posts, read 651,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
For as the heaven is high above the earth, [so] great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

But the mercy of the LORD [is] from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children

The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.

And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.

I guess the Bible disagrees with you again.
Can you show the context of all these verses please
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:31 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,770,916 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Do you not believe in UR? Well, faith is not required in the world of URs. Everyone will be converted after death whether they like it or not. That is the core teaching of UR.

PS Your comment word for word: I never said anything about the need for faith.

You asked me to show you a verse where Jesus talked about eternal punishment and I showed you. Don't try to change the topic. Besides, I quoted Matthew 25:46 and you pretend I quoted Matthew 25:41. Why?
Yes, I believe in UR, that God will reconcile all creation back to himself, as stated in scripture, and that Jesus is the Savior of the world, and He did not fail.

Finn, let me explain the meaning of this complicated sentence: "I never said anything about the need for faith." In other words, you brought up the subject. What does clarifying who brought up a subject have to do with what I actually believe about the subject? It's almost impossible to carry on a conversation with you because you play word games.

Since you brought it up, I'll tell you that I believe that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." I believe this because it is in the bible. It appears from your post that you believe faith is a requirement of some sort.

I did not ask you to show me a verse about eternal punishment. I asked you to show me a verse where Jesus says that if a person does not believe He died to free them from their sins, that in fact, His death and resurrection does not free them from their sins. You didn't show such a verse, but instead, quoted a verse out of a passage that is talking about doing good for other people, and has nothing to do with being freed from sin.
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