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What this whole set of ideas made me wonder is how is it logical for Sciomaticks to be concerned that we could, by our belief, "send someone to hell via our influence" while also believing in basic Calvinism from what I can tell, as well as believing God is not concerned about those who he already knows in advance will be going to hell???? The lack of logic in all of that boggles the mind. God gave us a brain. I believe he expects us to use them.
Heartsong
Exactly Heartsong! Sciotamicks is contradicting himself and not even realizing it.
Sciotamicks' beliefs:
God doesn't love everyone.
God has chosen who will be saved.
According to those beliefs, no one can "send someone to hell via our influence" because God has already chosen who is not saved and going to hell.
Hebrews 9:28so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Christ bore the sins of many, not all. The essential issue here concerns the nature of the atonement. Jesus' atonement involved both expiation and propitiation.
Expiation -- Christ removing our sins. He paid for them. Propitiation -- satisfaction of sin before God.
If Christ bore in His own body on the tree the sins of all men without exception, then none will ever go to Hell.
Payment cannot be twice demanded by God, first by Christ and then again by those in Hell, purgatory, or some fairy tale lake of fire.
People suffer the second death because of their sin, but why would they, if Christ paid their penalty?
For example if you break the law and I go down to the court house and pay your penalty for you -- then you cannot be made to pay it again.
Either Christ paid for your sins or you spend eternity in the second death paying for them yourself.
Payment cannot be demanded of both Christ and you, or the lake of fire and the presence of the Lamb and His Holy Angles.
Payment for sin was expatiated and propitiated by Christ on Calvary.
UR proposes that in the lake of fire, man pays for his sin he committed on earth and will be purified into heaven, a second propitiation and payment by yourself and Christ once again and a second time. This is farther from the truth. I expose this false doctrine again, from another angle, and there are many more angles to choose from, so that the truth can be discerned by all those who frequent this forum of believers, and non-believers alike..
My advice to all those who don't believe, or looking into the faith.
Never trust someone that defies the foundational theme of the gospel as UR does, and that is to believe in this life in order to be saved from the wages of sin and rejection of Christ. Believe in Christ, because your sins were paid for. Do not believe in Christ, and YOU pay for that sin eternally....forever...and ever...and ever...and ever.
There cannot be two payments for sin to inherit eternal life. Only one.
Which was Christ's payment for our well deserved death in eternal hell.
UR lies.
Based on the bold . . .YOU are the liar. You continually misrepresent UR with these lies. UR believes that Jesus paid for our sins and we are all saved from eternal separation from God already (by Him . . . we need to do nothing). You seem to forget about our "works" (everything we actually "produce" in this life of ours in our consciousness that we take with us to the next one). The stubble, hay, wood, and evil we produce must be dealt with before we can be in the presence of God. Obtaining the cover of Jesus' perfection is one of the ways to do this by achieving harmonic resonance with Jesus through repentance in "Love of God and each other." Any and every thing we fail to "cover" (or never believed in Jesus . . . or whatever) . . . must be refined out by "fire" and we will suffer loss . . . but all of us are still saved.
Regarding the OP, Eusebius and others have touched on this already.
First it is not a "fairy tale" lake of fire. The lake of fire is spiritual and very real.
Second, it depends on what you mean by "payment" for sins.
Let us consider the elect only for a moment. We all agree that Christ died for the elect. Jesus took away the sins of the elect (and the world, but lets focus on the elect).
But do the elect still need to "pay" for their sins? Let's not even use the word "pay" as it is misleading. Do the elect still need to go through fire to be refined? YES. We are told that people are refined in fire, go through trials by fire, and are even saved by fire, in several places in the bible (1 Cor 3:12-15, 1 Pe 4:12-17, etc). The elect "family of God" is judged NOW in this life. It is through judgment and trials by fire that people are made righteous.
1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
So even though Jesus has saved us, we still go through fire and judgment - this is spiritual fire. We still reap what we sow, even though Christ has saved us.
So now let us consider the non-elect. Jesus has taken away their sins as well, because He takes away the sin of the world and has atoned for all sin.
So the story is the same for the non-elect - they too must go through spiritual fire and judgment so that they will be refined and purged and saved by fire. They will reap what they sow as well. But they too will be made righteous as Christ will make the many who died in Adam righteous (Romans 5).
So your OP is in err in thinking that non-believers some how "pay" for their own sin. What we are really talking about is this: Every one is saved through Christ but will endure trial and refinement by fire. This happens for some now, and the rest later. Its not a "special case" or "loophole" for unbelievers as your OP implies.
You guys are very articulate in pointing out sciotamicks flawed logic. I hope others are benefitting from it because scio is not. To me, he is flat out and deliberately misrepresenting UR.
He reminds me of the pharisees in the presence of Stephen when he saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and they became enraged and covered their ears OR the brother of the prodigal son who became angry at His father's forgiveness of his brother.
I don't think he is lacking in logic, more like a stoney heart. (no offense scio). When the foundation is seriously flawed(ET), what should we expect?
You don't get it do you.. Read the post again...you obviously don't have the theme discerned. Let me rephrase in plain layman's terms.
Christ died once and for all the sin.
Accept Christ, no death from sin. Inherit eternal life.
UR says, those without Christ, pay for their sins, temporarily, and are resurrected back into Heaven...resulting in dual payment of sin for eternal life.
It is either you, or Christ that is paying for them, not both.
Accept Christ...eternal life. Do not, accept eternal death.
Since most of the believers that you're contending with have accepted "The Christ" along with the desire/belief (out of compassion for others), that all...not just a few will be saved...should you not show respect for their view without agreeing, rather than calling them false witnesses, spreading the doctrine of demons, for saying that GOD IS LOVE therefore...?
Not necessarily on this thread, but from the many, many threads you've started, covering this same contention.
Hebrews 9:28so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Christ bore the sins of many, not all. The essential issue here concerns the nature of the atonement. Jesus' atonement involved both expiation and propitiation.
Expiation -- Christ removing our sins. He paid for them. Propitiation -- satisfaction of sin before God.
If Christ bore in His own body on the tree the sins of all men without exception, then none will ever go to Hell.
Payment cannot be twice demanded by God, first by Christ and then again by those in Hell, purgatory, or some fairy tale lake of fire.
People suffer the second death because of their sin, but why would they, if Christ paid their penalty?
For example if you break the law and I go down to the court house and pay your penalty for you -- then you cannot be made to pay it again.
Either Christ paid for your sins or you spend eternity in the second death paying for them yourself.
Payment cannot be demanded of both Christ and you, or the lake of fire and the presence of the Lamb and His Holy Angles.
Payment for sin was expatiated and propitiated by Christ on Calvary.
UR proposes that in the lake of fire, man pays for his sin he committed on earth and will be purified into heaven, a second propitiation and payment by yourself and Christ once again and a second time. This is farther from the truth. I expose this false doctrine again, from another angle, and there are many more angles to choose from, so that the truth can be discerned by all those who frequent this forum of believers, and non-believers alike..
My advice to all those who don't believe, or looking into the faith.
Never trust someone that defies the foundational theme of the gospel as UR does, and that is to believe in this life in order to be saved from the wages of sin and rejection of Christ. Believe in Christ, because your sins were paid for. Do not believe in Christ, and YOU pay for that sin eternally....forever...and ever...and ever...and ever.
There cannot be two payments for sin to inherit eternal life. Only one.
Which was Christ's payment for our well deserved death in eternal hell.
UR lies.
I believe you are correct: the penalty for sin has been paid once, and only once is necessary.
It sounds to me like you are starting to see that Christ DID in fact redeem mankind!
Hebrews 9:28so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Christ bore the sins of many, not all. The essential issue here concerns the nature of the atonement. Jesus' atonement involved both expiation and propitiation.
Expiation -- Christ removing our sins. He paid for them. Propitiation -- satisfaction of sin before God.
If Christ bore in His own body on the tree the sins of all men without exception, then none will ever go to Hell.
Payment cannot be twice demanded by God, first by Christ and then again by those in Hell, purgatory, or some fairy tale lake of fire.
People suffer the second death because of their sin, but why would they, if Christ paid their penalty?
For example if you break the law and I go down to the court house and pay your penalty for you -- then you cannot be made to pay it again.
Either Christ paid for your sins or you spend eternity in the second death paying for them yourself.
Payment cannot be demanded of both Christ and you, or the lake of fire and the presence of the Lamb and His Holy Angles.
Payment for sin was expatiated and propitiated by Christ on Calvary.
UR proposes that in the lake of fire, man pays for his sin he committed on earth and will be purified into heaven, a second propitiation and payment by yourself and Christ once again and a second time. This is farther from the truth. I expose this false doctrine again, from another angle, and there are many more angles to choose from, so that the truth can be discerned by all those who frequent this forum of believers, and non-believers alike..
My advice to all those who don't believe, or looking into the faith.
Never trust someone that defies the foundational theme of the gospel as UR does, and that is to believe in this life in order to be saved from the wages of sin and rejection of Christ. Believe in Christ, because your sins were paid for. Do not believe in Christ, and YOU pay for that sin eternally....forever...and ever...and ever...and ever.
There cannot be two payments for sin to inherit eternal life. Only one.
Which was Christ's payment for our well deserved death in eternal hell.
UR lies.
1 John 2:2
[LEFT]2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Huh? Where did you get that from the OP?...I wonder.....
Quite the opposite.....
Because you unwittingly supported UR with much of your post. Most Christians would never dream of believing that Christ only died for some, so therefore you showed that if it's like most people believe - that Christ died for all - that all are saved.
If Christ bore in His own body on the tree the sins of all men without exception, then none will ever go to Hell.
Yes exactly. Like others have said, you are supporting UR.
Like pneuma said:
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins ofthe whole world.
But there is an error in your above sentence. There is no Hell to be saved from, other than this carnal existence we have now.
This is another stumbling block in trying to to understand the truth when coming from an ET foundation. We are not being saved from a mythical fiery afterlife. What we are being saved from is sin, and its consequences - which ultimately lead to death.
Hebrews 9:28so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Christ bore the sins of many, not all. The essential issue here concerns the nature of the atonement. Jesus' atonement involved both expiation and propitiation.
Expiation -- Christ removing our sins. He paid for them. Propitiation -- satisfaction of sin before God.
If Christ bore in His own body on the tree the sins of all men without exception, then none will ever go to Hell.
Payment cannot be twice demanded by God, first by Christ and then again by those in Hell, purgatory, or some fairy tale lake of fire.
People suffer the second death because of their sin, but why would they, if Christ paid their penalty?
For example if you break the law and I go down to the court house and pay your penalty for you -- then you cannot be made to pay it again.
Either Christ paid for your sins or you spend eternity in the second death paying for them yourself.
Payment cannot be demanded of both Christ and you, or the lake of fire and the presence of the Lamb and His Holy Angles.
Payment for sin was expatiated and propitiated by Christ on Calvary.
UR proposes that in the lake of fire, man pays for his sin he committed on earth and will be purified into heaven, a second propitiation and payment by yourself and Christ once again and a second time. This is farther from the truth. I expose this false doctrine again, from another angle, and there are many more angles to choose from, so that the truth can be discerned by all those who frequent this forum of believers, and non-believers alike..
My advice to all those who don't believe, or looking into the faith.
Never trust someone that defies the foundational theme of the gospel as UR does, and that is to believe in this life in order to be saved from the wages of sin and rejection of Christ. Believe in Christ, because your sins were paid for. Do not believe in Christ, and YOU pay for that sin eternally....forever...and ever...and ever...and ever.
There cannot be two payments for sin to inherit eternal life. Only one.
Which was Christ's payment for our well deserved death in eternal hell.
UR lies.
Nice thread, sciotamicks!!
The UR's are having a field day with this because of your personal beliefs, all the while refusing to solve the problem you have put forth!!!
Either Jesus paid the debt for our sins or not. sciotamicks is looking at it from a universalist P.O.V. The belief of UR's is that Jesus paid the debt for EVERYONE!!! So everyone is saved, but first must pay their debt to sin by this spiritual fire!! So sciotamicks is right!! Either Jesus paid our debt for us or we pay ourselves after we die. So which is it?? You cannot have both!! You all know my beliefs concerning the afterlife. I do not believe as sciotamicks does concerning ET, or the saving process!! But I do believe as he does concerning this!! It really is a legitimate question concerning WHO pays the debt owed........ us or Jesus????
I am interested in hearing from the UR's regarding this!!
GOD BLESS!!!
DALE
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