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Old 07-07-2010, 09:41 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,614,623 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8 View Post
Nice thread, sciotamicks!!

The UR's are having a field day with this because of your personal beliefs, all the while refusing to solve the problem you have put forth!!!
Hi Dale,

You say:
"all the while refusing to solve the problem you have put forth!!!"

Hmmm did you read our answers? I thought I and others had already "solved" the "problem" put forth. Refer to my post #23 here. Eusebius, svenM, herefornow and others have also explained the errors in sciotamick's reasoning.

Quote:
Either Jesus paid the debt for our sins or not. sciotamicks is looking at it from a universalist P.O.V. The belief of UR's is that Jesus paid the debt for EVERYONE!!! So everyone is saved, but first must pay their debt to sin by this spiritual fire!! So sciotamicks is right!! Either Jesus paid our debt for us or we pay ourselves after we die. So which is it?? You cannot have both!! You all know my beliefs concerning the afterlife. I do not believe as sciotamicks does concerning ET, or the saving process!! But I do believe as he does concerning this!! It really is a legitimate question concerning WHO pays the debt owed........ us or Jesus????

I am interested in hearing from the UR's regarding this!!
The answer is simple. As already explained: Jesus has paid the debt for everyone, and everyone will be refined in fire, each in their own order, some now, the rest later.
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:43 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,770,916 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8 View Post
Nice thread, sciotamicks!!

The UR's are having a field day with this because of your personal beliefs, all the while refusing to solve the problem you have put forth!!!

Either Jesus paid the debt for our sins or not. sciotamicks is looking at it from a universalist P.O.V. The belief of UR's is that Jesus paid the debt for EVERYONE!!! So everyone is saved, but first must pay their debt to sin by this spiritual fire!! So sciotamicks is right!! Either Jesus paid our debt for us or we pay ourselves after we die. So which is it?? You cannot have both!! You all know my beliefs concerning the afterlife. I do not believe as sciotamicks does concerning ET, or the saving process!! But I do believe as he does concerning this!! It really is a legitimate question concerning WHO pays the debt owed........ us or Jesus????

I am interested in hearing from the UR's regarding this!!


GOD BLESS!!!
DALE
You said, "Either Jesus paid the debt for our sins or not." Who do you mean when you say, "our?" Do you agree with sciotamicks that Christ only died for some people? That is what he believes.

As it has already been pointed out, sciotamicks does not understand UR. UR teaches that Christ died for the sins of the world once for all, as the scriptures teach. That's why He is called the Savior of the World, and not just the Savior of the Elect or Chosen or whatever.
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:52 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,837,811 times
Reputation: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8 View Post
Nice thread, sciotamicks!!

The UR's are having a field day with this because of your personal beliefs, all the while refusing to solve the problem you have put forth!!!

Either Jesus paid the debt for our sins or not. sciotamicks is looking at it from a universalist P.O.V. The belief of UR's is that Jesus paid the debt for EVERYONE!!! So everyone is saved, but first must pay their debt to sin by this spiritual fire!! So sciotamicks is right!! Either Jesus paid our debt for us or we pay ourselves after we die. So which is it?? You cannot have both!! You all know my beliefs concerning the afterlife. I do not believe as sciotamicks does concerning ET, or the saving process!! But I do believe as he does concerning this!! It really is a legitimate question concerning WHO pays the debt owed........ us or Jesus????

I am interested in hearing from the UR's regarding this!!


GOD BLESS!!!
DALE
There is no problem that he has raised that hasn't been solved. You approach this from a false premise, you assert by your own words that sciomaticks presents an argument that inherantly has only two choices.

But that is incorrect, it can be scripturally shown that there is both, because blasphemy is a sin that has a payment owed rather than the release from it's consequenses through forgiveness.


There is also more since sciomaticks presents a scenario where you Almost2L8 as a believer will not be held accountable for any of your actions on earth.

If you believe this, fine, if you do not then understand that IS what he believes. The point is that scripture will be shown to detail more than you have tried to narrow it down to being.


But you can feel better about yourself by thinking he got the one up on the UR's when his whole premise is false to begin with and your buying into it, or already believe it. Which ever the case is that the dislike of UR tends to cause people to flock together and even then when the dust settles you will find that many of you that have flocked together believe things that damns one another as we witnessed not long ago with some "Brother Something or other".

It is quite embarassing to watch believers do this, but I'll get over it.
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Rapid City, SD
723 posts, read 884,257 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
There is no problem that he has raised that hasn't been solved. You approach this from a false premise, you assert by your own words that sciomaticks presents an argument that inherantly has only two choices.

But that is incorrect, it can be scripturally shown that there is both, because blasphemy is a sin that has a payment owed rather than the release from it's consequenses through forgiveness.


There is also more since sciomaticks presents a scenario where you Almost2L8 as a believer will not be held accountable for any of your actions on earth.

If you believe this, fine, if you do not then understand that IS what he believes. The point is that scripture will be shown to detail more than you have tried to narrow it down to being.


But you can feel better about yourself by thinking he got the one up on the UR's when his whole premise is false to begin with and your buying into it, or already believe it. Which ever the case is that the dislike of UR tends to cause people to flock together and even then when the dust settles you will find that many of you that have flocked together believe things that damns one another as we witnessed not long ago with some "Brother Something or other".

It is quite embarassing to watch believers do this, but I'll get over it.
LOL I hope you do get over it, Phazel!!

I do not "buy into" anything!! I was merely re-stating a question that was proposed, regardless of his beliefs!! I do not know his whole belief system, nor is it of concern to me with this issue!!! What do you mean "flock together"?? You have agreed with myself concerning issues on ET. Does that mean we have flocked together also?? LOL Many of us agree on certain issues concerning our beliefs, and other issues we do not!! That is just how it goes, but please do not put me in any class with other believers, as we do not believe the same thing!!

GOD BLESS!!!
DALE
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Rapid City, SD
723 posts, read 884,257 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hi Dale,

You say:
"all the while refusing to solve the problem you have put forth!!!"

Hmmm did you read our answers? I thought I and others had already "solved" the "problem" put forth. Refer to my post #23 here. Eusebius, svenM, herefornow and others have also explained the errors in sciotamick's reasoning.

The answer is simple. As already explained: Jesus has paid the debt for everyone, and everyone will be refined in fire, each in their own order, some now, the rest later.
OK so this refining, is it supposed to feel good?? Is it supposed to be a punishment?? Or is it just a simple cleansing that has no feeling or is no punishment??

I guess that is where I am trying to make sense of what you are saying!!


GOD BLESS!!!
DALE
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,669,238 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You don't get it do you.. Read the post again...you obviously don't have the theme discerned. Let me rephrase in plain layman's terms.

Christ died once and for all the sin.
Accept Christ, no death from sin. Inherit eternal life.
UR says, those without Christ, pay for their sins, temporarily, and are resurrected back into Heaven...resulting in dual payment of sin for eternal life.
It is either you, or Christ that is paying for them, not both.

Accept Christ...eternal life. Do not, accept eternal death.
NO... UR states that Christ DIED FOR those sins already. A dual payment is that those sins were paid for by Christ and then by the sinner as well by eternal punishment.

Where do you get this eternal death concept? It isn't scriptural.
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,287,254 times
Reputation: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8 View Post
Nice thread, sciotamicks!!

The UR's are having a field day with this because of your personal beliefs, all the while refusing to solve the problem you have put forth!!!

Either Jesus paid the debt for our sins or not. sciotamicks is looking at it from a universalist P.O.V. The belief of UR's is that Jesus paid the debt for EVERYONE!!! So everyone is saved, but first must pay their debt to sin by this spiritual fire!! So sciotamicks is right!! Either Jesus paid our debt for us or we pay ourselves after we die. So which is it?? You cannot have both!! You all know my beliefs concerning the afterlife. I do not believe as sciotamicks does concerning ET, or the saving process!! But I do believe as he does concerning this!! It really is a legitimate question concerning WHO pays the debt owed........ us or Jesus????

I am interested in hearing from the UR's regarding this!!


GOD BLESS!!!
DALE
I personally believe that it's quite probable that Jesus has indeed paid the debt for EVERYONE. The lake of fire etc is reserved for the old man which is in all of us still, but has died when Christ died. (We all have a dead man in us that must be "thrown away" so to speak.)
In Romans 6, Paul continues what he was saying in ch 5 by asking rhetorically, if grace abounded over and above all sin, should we just keep in sinning in order for grace to grow? Absolutely not! The life that we have in Christ Jesus is much superior to that of the sin we used to know! Anybody who says that they "might as well sin because they're already saved" hasn't understood a thing about God's Life imparted to mankind through Jesus Christ!

blessings,
brian
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,669,238 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes exactly. Like others have said, you are supporting UR.

Like pneuma said:
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

But there is an error in your above sentence. There is no Hell to be saved from, other than this carnal existence we have now.

This is another stumbling block in trying to to understand the truth when coming from an ET foundation. We are not being saved from a mythical fiery afterlife. What we are being saved from is sin, and its consequences - which ultimately lead to death.
All of which are applicable during a lifetime and not so relevant once you can't sin anymore...ie after death.
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,669,238 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8 View Post
Nice thread, sciotamicks!!

The UR's are having a field day with this because of your personal beliefs, all the while refusing to solve the problem you have put forth!!!

Either Jesus paid the debt for our sins or not. sciotamicks is looking at it from a universalist P.O.V. The belief of UR's is that Jesus paid the debt for EVERYONE!!! So everyone is saved, but first must pay their debt to sin by this spiritual fire!! So sciotamicks is right!! Either Jesus paid our debt for us or we pay ourselves after we die. So which is it?? You cannot have both!! You all know my beliefs concerning the afterlife. I do not believe as sciotamicks does concerning ET, or the saving process!! But I do believe as he does concerning this!! It really is a legitimate question concerning WHO pays the debt owed........ us or Jesus????

I am interested in hearing from the UR's regarding this!!


GOD BLESS!!!
DALE
You misunderstand the debt... obviously.

What debt is owed?

If Jesus paid the debt on the cross then what debt is left owing to be paid after death.

I see no scriptural evidence that any debt CAN be paid after death....

But I digress..... What is the debt owed?

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. (Romans 13:8)

IS that the debt? The continuing debt to love one another?

Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

The Law was the debt owed but without the law (abolished in 70AD) there is no sin.

Romans 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:24 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,837,811 times
Reputation: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8 View Post
LOL I hope you do get over it, Phazel!!

I do not "buy into" anything!! I was merely re-stating a question that was proposed, regardless of his beliefs!! I do not know his whole belief system, nor is it of concern to me with this issue!!! What do you mean "flock together"?? You have agreed with myself concerning issues on ET. Does that mean we have flocked together also?? LOL Many of us agree on certain issues concerning our beliefs, and other issues we do not!! That is just how it goes, but please do not put me in any class with other believers, as we do not believe the same thing!!

GOD BLESS!!!
DALE

You agree with sciomaticks in a way that is siding with him and what he stands for and believes as he does. If that is not your intention, then pick your words more carefully.

I can agree with something you say and not stand beside you making assertions to others about what you say in the way you have , therefore making the appearance that I believe as you do.
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