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Old 07-07-2010, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,693,642 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8 View Post
OK so this refining, is it supposed to feel good?? Is it supposed to be a punishment?? Or is it just a simple cleansing that has no feeling or is no punishment??

I guess that is where I am trying to make sense of what you are saying!!


GOD BLESS!!!
DALE
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

All done for OUR own good and not as punishment for punishment brings fear... there is no fear in love.

That is my understanding anyway.
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:35 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,633,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8 View Post
OK so this refining, is it supposed to feel good?? Is it supposed to be a punishment?? Or is it just a simple cleansing that has no feeling or is no punishment??

I guess that is where I am trying to make sense of what you are saying!!


GOD BLESS!!!
DALE
You will get different views on this, but IMHO:

I don't suppose it will feel good at the time. It is remedial punishment for correction. We experience similar trials by fire every day in our lives - sometimes in small ways, sometimes in big ways. Does it feel good when you realize you've hurt a loved one and now feel incredibly guilty and shameful? Or do you feel tormented and punished when you go through those feelings? That is a small example of the refining we go through in this life. And of course there are much bigger fires that people go through in this life. People reap what they sow, one way or another.

The lake of fire symbolically represents how those who go into it will learn these things. It is punishment for the purposes of correction - correction until you are made perfect. It is the judgment that will lead to them learning righteousness. God's judgments teach people righteousness.

Try to get this idea of a torture chamber out of your head - I'm not sure if that's what your thinking, but many people still hang onto that idea, even when discussing UR. The lake of fire is not a torture chamber where people are sent until they "give in and confess". And it is certainly not an eternal torture chamber or eternal separation as the ETers would have you believe.
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Rapid City, SD
723 posts, read 886,164 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
1 john 4:18 there is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

All done for our own good and not as punishment for punishment brings fear... There is no fear in love.

That is my understanding anyway.

(1john 5:2-5)

god bless!!!
Dale
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:54 AM
 
40,286 posts, read 26,858,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

All done for OUR own good and not as punishment for punishment brings fear... there is no fear in love.

That is my understanding anyway.
Kat . . . you are just bursting with the Spirit . . . but it almost seems like they have you and me on ignore. They either aren't reading our posts, don't understand them or have some other agenda. Continue to spread enlightenment, kat . . . the lurkers will definitely benefit.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:14 PM
 
40,286 posts, read 26,858,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8 View Post
OK so this refining, is it supposed to feel good?? Is it supposed to be a punishment?? Or is it just a simple cleansing that has no feeling or is no punishment??
I guess that is where I am trying to make sense of what you are saying!!
GOD BLESS!!!
DALE
This will be a bit tricky . . . as it is highly dependent on how strongly the Holy Spirit has convicted you and established sensitivity to others. Have you ever willfully done anything for selfish reasons (or just inconsiderate or negligent reasons) . . . that produced serious irreparable harm or consequences to someone you care about . . . and there is nothing that can ever be done to "undo it?" Have you ever experienced the constant and recurring pangs of remorse over it because you are now more aware and sensitized to it (and things like it.)?

I suspect THAT is the kind of experiences that will be involved in "refining" because at that time the Holy Spirit will have definitely convicted your soul and opened your eyes and heart to the full import of your deeds. Weeping and gnashing of teeth probably does not remotely capture it.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,316 posts, read 34,497,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
Yep, my fears were taken away when I found Christ.

Let me help you quote some of the context here in 1 John 4. It talks about God removing fear from people if they acknowledge Jesus, and not before : "If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God". See, if everyone was already saved as some erraneously believe, then fear would not exist anymore, but it exists, doesn't it? Yes, people fear judgement, because they know God is not in them, but once you invite God into your life you will have confidence in the day of judgement : so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment.

Here:

15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,693,642 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Kat . . . you are just bursting with the Spirit . . . but it almost seems like they have you and me on ignore. They either aren't reading our posts, don't understand them or have some other agenda. Continue to spread enlightenment, kat . . . the lurkers will definitely benefit.
I noticed that... however, I also notice that if you say PRIMITIVE they will respond!
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,693,642 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yep, my fears were taken away when I found Christ.

Let me help you quote some of the context here in 1 John 4. It talks about God removing fear from people if they acknowledge Jesus, and not before : "If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God". See, if everyone was already saved as some erraneously believe, then fear would not exist anymore, but it exists, doesn't it? Yes, people fear judgement, because they know God is not in them, but once you invite God into your life you will have confidence in the day of judgement : so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment.

Here:

15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
I noticed that... but YOU seem to have overlooked the first half of the chapter:

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

EVERYONE who loves has been born of God and knows God.... You can also know God through Christ's love for others as an example. Some need more examples than just the one and some don't need the example of love at all... God loved us so we can then love him.

No contradictions there, but of course you focus on the portions you believe stipulate a certain group is "of God" rather than EVERYONE who loves as it states prior to that. Love originates with God... so even my cranky non-believing Aunt who did love me dearly despite her cantankerousness is "of God."
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,316 posts, read 34,497,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I noticed that... but YOU seem to have overlooked the first half of the chapter:
No, I have read it. As you can clearly see from your own quotes as well as from mine, salvation is not unconditional. You say "EVERYONE who loves has been born of God and knows God", so that excludes those who don't love.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,775,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This will be a bit tricky . . . as it is highly dependent on how strongly the Holy Spirit has convicted you and established sensitivity to others. Have you ever willfully done anything for selfish reasons (or just inconsiderate or negligent reasons) . . . that produced serious irreparable harm or consequences to someone you care about . . . and there is nothing that can ever be done to "undo it?" Have you ever experienced the constant and recurring pangs of remorse over it because you are now more aware and sensitized to it (and things like it.)?

I suspect THAT is the kind of experiences that will be involved in "refining" because at that time the Holy Spirit will have definitely convicted your soul and opened your eyes and heart to the full import of your deeds. Weeping and gnashing of teeth probably does not remotely capture it.
Well said. It is imperative that we examine ourselves. It is a mistake to spend all our time examining everyone except ourselves. It is frightening to realize that Almighty God knows everything about us - and yet overwhelming when we realize that in spite of that, he loves us and desires to clothe us with his righteousness. That is the experience of regeneration. There can be (or was for me) a lot of drawing and pulling before the time when I really believed God loved me in spite of my bad self. I think a lot of religious experiences I had hindered my ability to believe it. But also my flesh too - the pull of sin on me had it's power as well. I would not want to go back to "before" - I can tell you that for sure. Not that I don't feel a bit of fire and desperation even now - because of this mortal body. Most of all for me is that I desire to see others set free and I long to comfort and edify those who are going through life's afflictions with me.

Peace -
Heartsong
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