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Old 07-07-2010, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,434,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

You make light of Christ's sacrifice by stating that someone can do it for themselves after death... yet really they never pay off the debt if they are paying FOREVER...So again we are back to Christ's payment Once for all.
Again...you fail to see the message of the OP.
UR proposes that man will endure a "corrective/punitive" period in the lake of fire.

Corrective and punitive = payment.

Man cannot endure a punitive corrective period for his sins and be granted eternal life. Christ already paid for the sins of that man.
Only Christ can do that and He did.
Correction in the lake of Fire does not exist in the scriptures.
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,434,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Because you unwittingly supported UR with much of your post. Most Christians would never dream of believing that Christ only died for some, so therefore you showed that if it's like most people believe - that Christ died for all - that all are saved.
No I didn't.. This is the problem with UR...they see things that aren't there....I completely condemned your philosophy to the core.

Christ died for all, but not all are saved. His sacrifice is only realized by some, and the rest died forever. Finished.

The only payment and corrective period for mankind sins are paid eternally.
It is an eternal correction. There is no second chance.
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes exactly. Like others have said, you are supporting UR.
Again, the Universalist has a hard time discerning the OP.

Quote:
Like pneuma said:
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

But there is an error in your above sentence. There is no Hell to be saved from, other than this carnal existence we have now.
LOL...ok keep smoking that good weed.

Quote:
This is another stumbling block in trying to to understand the truth when coming from an ET foundation. We are not being saved from a mythical fiery afterlife. What we are being saved from is sin, and its consequences - which ultimately lead to death.
What is death?
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,288,413 times
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Hi Scarlet Wren and others,
I also agree that there is the "old man" still within each of us. However, I believe that it is a DEAD old man, that died when Christ died.
In fact, the scripture says that He died for us, so that those who live no longer live to themselves.

It seems that there truly is no Life outside of Christ, since His death caused us all to "die." If we are ALL dead, then those who are given faith and regenerated are the only ones who are truly "living" at this time.

As for sin, there is a verse which sticks with me: "For then would He often have had to suffer [over and over again] since the foundation of the world. But as it now is, He has once for all at the consummation and close of the ages appeared to put away and abolish sin by His sacrifice [of Himself]." Heb 9:26, Amplified.

This leads me to think that sin is, for all practical purposes, gone.
Yes, the dead man is still there, but God is no longer "seeing" sin, but only the blood.

Just a few thoughts to add here...!

Blessings,
brian
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:12 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,771,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
Wow, I believe so many have answered and explained how it is NOT a dual payment when someone is corrected/refined by fire.

the OP asserts that Jesus did NOT pay for everyone's sins because so many are sent to the Lake of Fire and therefore are experiencing the result of their unbelief.

Let me take a shot at this and see if it helps at all.

I go down and pay for someone's crime, I paid the initial cost of what was stolen,destroyed, whatever, PLUS the double or more restitution described in the law (for pain and suffering of the offended, etc.)

The criminal is now free to go. He will never be held accountable for that crime. But did my payment make that person good? One offender perhaps was pierced in the heart and did a 180 turnabout, resolving never to offend his fellow man again and to serve me for paying the debt he owed. This is well and good.

Another one knew I paid his debt, but doesn't care. He goes and steals again. Now in the example, he has incurred a second debt, but in scripture, Christ paid for ALL OF HIS sins. So he cannot again be charged with the crime, but he seriously needs a change in his heart. Then there are the offenders who somehow didn't know it was a crime or that they would ever be held accountable for it or that someone paid off his debt..

In the Jewish system, a man who fell into debt would sell his land under the terms of Jubilee (the proscribed period that one could lawfully sell his land for) and then become his servant. A near kinsman had the right to go to that new owner and pay off the debt of his kinsman. By law the new landowner could NOT refuse this arrangement. But, contrary to general opinion, the original landowner was NOT free to go back to the way things were, but had merely changed who he was indebted to. IT is possible, in human terms, that the nearer kinsman might be a harder taskmaster than the first master. Of course, Jesus is NOT. In theory, the nearer kinsman would be a better master.

So, though we are set free, we are not set free to live our life any way we choose, but we are merely changing masters. From the slavery of sin to the freedom of love in Christ.

The new master sets about to make us good servants. Some are not good servants as he indicated in quite a few parables. These servants will suffer loss in the upcoming kingdom age, but will NOT be sold back to the old master. He is STILL a servant of the king. This is a good and fair king, he will NOT send his servant to a torture chamber, but at times it may metaphorically feel like it.

Just because we have been set free from our debts, does NOT mean that we are now new creations, just by that act. As someone else pointed out, this old man has to die and it does not often go willingly, it kicks and screams and holds on as tight as it possibly can. Sometimes it takes drastic measures to kill him off and that is what the Lake of Fire (metaphorical and spiritual) is all about. Christ is a fair master. While his work may seem difficult and painful at the time, on retrospection we will agree that it was not more than was necessary to 'turn us' into the right path.

The Lake of Fire is not about payment for our debts. Christ already took care of that. It is about taking the pig that he has removed from the mud pit and making him presentable to live in the presence of the king. And with us, it's not simply a bath to clean the outer man, but the inside must be cleaned for it is what proceeds out of the heart that shows what a man is about. Therefore we must receive a new heart of flesh, replacing the old one of stone, and that can never be painless.

He is not dealing with all of his ransomed people at one time. Each one is dealt with in the proper order. Some he has chosen first (firstfruits/elect) to be rulers and leaders in his messianic age. But all will eventually see they had a debt, that Christ paid it, and become willing servants to their redeemer.

I hope that might help show a clearer picture to someone.

Peace and blessings to all.
I
Very good post!
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
1 John 2:2
[LEFT]2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

[/LEFT]

....of believers. 1 John is a letter to a group of people he discipled. The whole KOSMOS relates only to the context of the of the subject John is concerned with, and that is those that confess in Christ. In the New Testament Greek text, kosmos occurs about 185 times. It is used some 105 times by the apostle John, 47 times by Paul and 33 times by other writers. With the use of a concordance, it is readily observed that kosmos is never used by Paul or the other writers to mean all mankind generically in a salvation context unless John's usage is the exception. It is used of all mankind universally in a context of sin and judgment (Rom. 3:6, 19; 5:12), but never in a salvation context.

Nice try, but you are incorrect.
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 908,581 times
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[quote=ahigherway;14936545]Hi Scarlet Wren and others,
I also agree that there is the "old man" still within each of us. However, I believe that it is a DEAD old man, that died when Christ died.
In fact, the scripture says that He died for us, so that those who live no longer live to themselves.

It seems that there truly is no Life outside of Christ, since His death caused us all to "die." If we are ALL dead, then those who are given faith and regenerated are the only ones who are truly "living" at this time.

As for sin, there is a verse which sticks with me: "For then would He often have had to suffer [over and over again] since the foundation of the world. But as it now is, He has once for all at the consummation and close of the ages appeared to put away and abolish sin by His sacrifice [of Himself]." Heb 9:26, Amplified.

This leads me to think that sin is, for all practical purposes, gone.
Yes, the dead man is still there, but God is no longer "seeing" sin, but only the blood.


Then what IS the purpose of the Lake of Fire? Why did Paul say that he wanted to do good but did that which was not good? Who is he warring with? I suppose you would say that he is describing himself BEFORE he met Christ on the road, but I believe he felt he was righteous under the law and didn't really war with himself at all then, he was 'justified by the law' in his mind in his pre-conversion days.

I do believe that we don't see true life until we are made alive by the spirit, but we definitely don't become good automatically, by imputation we are righteous in God's sight, but experientially, I believe we are not made good without refining and correction, even Christ had to suffer and then there's the experiences of Job, Joseph, David, Abraham, Jacob, etc. The elect experience their refining in this age, then the following ages deal with the rest, how many ages, I don't know, but I definitely look forward to the Tabernacles age.

Of course, preterists do not subscribe to all this, but since we have had the passover age and the pentecostal age, I firmly believe the world will see a tabernacles age. The feasts are a major theme in scripture and spell out how God deals with humankind..

Perhaps I misunderstand your stance.

Gotta go now, will be back later sometime.

blessings
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,288,413 times
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Hi Sciotamicks,
UR is from platonism and gnosticism? I don't find gnosticism influence at all, and platonism has "permanently" influenced both Catholicism and Protestantism. I think you need to be more specific..

Also,
Jesus: "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."
Sciotamicks: "Jesus will not save the world."

Blessings!
brian
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:29 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,615,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Again...you fail to see the message of the OP.
UR proposes that man will endure a "corrective/punitive" period in the lake of fire.

Corrective and punitive = payment.

Man cannot endure a punitive corrective period for his sins and be granted eternal life. Christ already paid for the sins of that man.
Only Christ can do that and He did.
Correction in the lake of Fire does not exist in the scriptures.
This is the fallacy of your OP. No, Corrective and punitive does not equal payment.

Corrective and punitive is for the purposes of being made righteous, being made perfect.

Do you believe you are perfect and righteous already sciota? Do you still sin?
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,434,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
Since most of the believers that you're contending with have accepted "The Christ" along with the desire/belief (out of compassion for others), that all...not just a few will be saved...should you not show respect for their view without agreeing, rather than calling them false witnesses, spreading the doctrine of demons, for saying that GOD IS LOVE therefore...?

Not necessarily on this thread, but from the many, many threads you've started, covering this same contention.
and57,

UR and those that ascribe to the doctrine of Universal Salvation and reconciliation, GOES against everything Christ said about believing in Him, in this life.....reward for the choices is eternal life, or a sentence to death.

Therefore, they are false witnesses.
I never said they were spreading the doctrine of demons.
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