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Old 04-10-2013, 04:06 AM
 
367 posts, read 293,390 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I obtained the information from research and you can do the same...
Sure you did.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,291 posts, read 7,664,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
The word is Eklessia which means assembly...No hierarchy?...Yet the Apostles installed Bishops to head the various assemblies and spoke of Preachers, Deacons, Elders and teachers...And that is not hierarchy?...
Bishops, or elders were a group of leaders who were looked up to and who ran the day to day business of the church and were accountable to the assembly. As for the rest, they were and are also different ministries within the body.....check out what is said about esteeming one ministry above another.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,291 posts, read 7,664,870 times
Reputation: 1722
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I obtained the information from research and you can do the same...
Ok,

List of Christian Denominations & Their Beliefs |


churchrelevance.com/qa-list-of-all-christian-denominations-and...
There are roughly 39,000 Christian denominations worldwide in 2008 & the number is expected to grow to 55,000 by 2025. Here is a list of...
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Hephzibah, GA
281 posts, read 240,401 times
Reputation: 76
I have never been a Jew and never subject to the Law. I was never under the commandment to observe the Sabbath, I am not under the obligation to obey the Sabbath commandments.

For those who obey the Law, how was it that you were saved, by grace through faith, or by keeping of the Law? Or how was it that you received the Spirit, by the working of the Law or by hearing with faith? If it is by the keeping of the Law, then had best keep every part of the Law, for 'he who practices them shall live by them.' (Gal. 3:16, Lev. 18:5, Rom. 10:5) And we know if you violate the Law at any point, then you violate the whole Law and the curse of the Law is attached. You either observe all the Law, or you are free from the observance of the Law, and that includes the Sabbath day commands.

The Gentile church was never given the command to worship and obey the the Sabbath commandments (there is more than just the one). Why is it that the Paul first visited the synagogues in the cities he visited? It was not because he was bound to the Law and had to observe it. It was because that was when he would find the most Jews gathered together. As was his custom as well, he then went to the meeting place on the first day of the week because that was where he was going to find the most Gentiles gathered together.

Why did the Jewish Apostles gather together on the 7th day to worship in the Temple, because that was were there were the most Jews meeting on any single day. Being Jewish, of course they would continue to worship on the same day, it was part of their culture, who they where. But a Gentile didn't, unless he was a Jewish proselyte. It is quite possible that when Peter met with Cornelius, it was not on the Sabbath but on Sunday, the Greko-Roman day of worship. When the Jerusalem council meet to consider placing Jewish burden on the Gentile church, it would have been an opportune time to establish Sabbath worship for the church, but they did not. Instead, they gave only two requests: remember the orphans and widows and to abstain from strangled things. Nothing more, no observance of the Law including Sabbath observance.

I don't care on what day anyone worships, but stop telling my I'm violating the Law by not worshiping on Saturday. I don't care about the Law, it was never applicable to me in the first place. I was never bound to the Law. If you are convinced you are doing right by holding Saturday over another day of the week, then worship on Saturday. But I hold Sunday in that same regard, and it's not a sin or violation of the Law since I'm not bound to it and never was! I could go into Paul's teaching in Romans about the weaker brother, but I won't. I don't really believe that worship on one day or another is concerning that, unless you believe you are sinning by worshiping on any other day. If that is the stand that is being taken about Sabbath worship, then Paul's instruction to the Roman's is relevant to this conversation. Paul told the Colossians, "Let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath." And that includes the weekly Sabbath. Why? Because the Sabbath observance was given to Israel, not just as part of the Law, but as a perpetual sign of the covenant with Israel, and I am not and never have been part of Israel.

Either you observe all the Law, and are bound by the Law, or you are free from the Law and all it's observances including the Sabbath day observance. If you observe the Sabbath as your day of worship purely out of faith and love of God, God bless you. But when I observe Sunday as my day of worship in the same way, do not curse me.

Blessings in Christ,

Matthew
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Old 04-10-2013, 06:12 PM
 
Location: US
27,991 posts, read 15,070,149 times
Reputation: 1753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wretched.elect View Post
I have never been a Jew and never subject to the Law. I was never under the commandment to observe the Sabbath, I am not under the obligation to obey the Sabbath commandments.

For those who obey the Law, how was it that you were saved, by grace through faith, or by keeping of the Law? Or how was it that you received the Spirit, by the working of the Law or by hearing with faith? If it is by the keeping of the Law, then had best keep every part of the Law, for 'he who practices them shall live by them.' (Gal. 3:16, Lev. 18:5, Rom. 10:5) And we know if you violate the Law at any point, then you violate the whole Law and the curse of the Law is attached. You either observe all the Law, or you are free from the observance of the Law, and that includes the Sabbath day commands.

The Gentile church was never given the command to worship and obey the the Sabbath commandments (there is more than just the one). Why is it that the Paul first visited the synagogues in the cities he visited? It was not because he was bound to the Law and had to observe it. It was because that was when he would find the most Jews gathered together. As was his custom as well, he then went to the meeting place on the first day of the week because that was where he was going to find the most Gentiles gathered together.

Why did the Jewish Apostles gather together on the 7th day to worship in the Temple, because that was were there were the most Jews meeting on any single day. Being Jewish, of course they would continue to worship on the same day, it was part of their culture, who they where. But a Gentile didn't, unless he was a Jewish proselyte. It is quite possible that when Peter met with Cornelius, it was not on the Sabbath but on Sunday, the Greko-Roman day of worship. When the Jerusalem council meet to consider placing Jewish burden on the Gentile church, it would have been an opportune time to establish Sabbath worship for the church, but they did not. Instead, they gave only two requests: remember the orphans and widows and to abstain from strangled things. Nothing more, no observance of the Law including Sabbath observance.

I don't care on what day anyone worships, but stop telling my I'm violating the Law by not worshiping on Saturday. I don't care about the Law, it was never applicable to me in the first place. I was never bound to the Law. If you are convinced you are doing right by holding Saturday over another day of the week, then worship on Saturday. But I hold Sunday in that same regard, and it's not a sin or violation of the Law since I'm not bound to it and never was! I could go into Paul's teaching in Romans about the weaker brother, but I won't. I don't really believe that worship on one day or another is concerning that, unless you believe you are sinning by worshiping on any other day. If that is the stand that is being taken about Sabbath worship, then Paul's instruction to the Roman's is relevant to this conversation. Paul told the Colossians, "Let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath." And that includes the weekly Sabbath. Why? Because the Sabbath observance was given to Israel, not just as part of the Law, but as a perpetual sign of the covenant with Israel, and I am not and never have been part of Israel.

Either you observe all the Law, and are bound by the Law, or you are free from the Law and all it's observances including the Sabbath day observance. If you observe the Sabbath as your day of worship purely out of faith and love of God, God bless you. But when I observe Sunday as my day of worship in the same way, do not curse me.

Blessings in Christ,

Matthew
Prove it...
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Old 04-10-2013, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,291 posts, read 7,664,870 times
Reputation: 1722
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
We have each fashioned our own God and our own Messiah according to our own flesh and our own likings with the result of non-conformity to the Image of the Messiah...And yet we wonder why there are over 32,000 plus denominations worldwide with each one stating that they are the one tat hold the Truth...32,000 plus different versions of God and the Messiah...
Actually, I dont wonder. It's because of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Hephzibah, GA
281 posts, read 240,401 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Prove it...
Richard, if you have not read your bible, particularly Acts and the Pauline letters, then you need to do so. It's pretty clear from Scripture. But, so I can answer specifically, what part of my post do you need the Scriptures to prove to you? That we as Gentiles, and the church in general, are not under the Law? That if we live by the Law (any part of it) we are bound by the Law? That the Sabbath Commandment was given as an everlasting covenant to Israel? That the church is not Israel?
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:00 AM
 
367 posts, read 293,390 times
Reputation: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
.............
We have each fashioned our own God and our own Messiah according to our own flesh and our own likings with the result of non-conformity to the Image of the Messiah...And yet we wonder why there are over 32,000 plus denominations worldwide with each one stating that they are the one tat hold the Truth...32,000 plus different versions of God and the Messiah...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Ok,

List of Christian Denominations & Their Beliefs |


churchrelevance.com/qa-list-of-all-christian-denominations-and...
There are roughly 39,000 Christian denominations worldwide in 2008 & the number is expected to grow to 55,000 by 2025. Here is a list of...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Actually, if you were to think about it, I was not the one who (jokingly) questioned your figures, I was the one who decided to end the spiteful exchange with the research, thank you.
OK, just so we all see what Richard actually claimed see the first post above. Now I see how you can make the numbers come out to that if you do not make the remainder of the claim. Hence for one part of Richards claim to be true then the second part must be false. Hence making Richards statement a half-truth.

Where Richard and most others err is that they think because there are multiple groups that they somehow differ in their basic doctrine and think the other are somehow not "Christian" like they are. This is the straw-man that people like Richard must use to attack God's church. And I would also point out that many of those are not even remotely Christian in nature. Just more foolishness to hinder the work of God on Earth.
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Old 10-04-2014, 09:29 AM
 
1 posts, read 334 times
Reputation: 10
Default dale the confessor

even the law of Moshe includes sabbos and other types of law which the ten are magnified. also Paul mention the ten inclusion of in Romans.
jn. 6 tells u what g d requires for salvation.
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Old 10-22-2014, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Hephzibah, GA
281 posts, read 240,401 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorando View Post
even the law of Moshe includes sabbos and other types of law which the ten are magnified. also Paul mention the ten inclusion of in Romans.
jn. 6 tells u what g d requires for salvation.
I'm not sure what a sabbos is, but I think you mean sabbaths (or shabbaots). There are many different kinds of sabboths, including the weekly sabbaoth. When Paul went about, he met with Jews on the Jewish sabbath (saturday) and with Gentiles on their sabbath (sunday). Paul never at any time commanded the gentile converts to meet on the Jewish sabbath because they were not Jews. In keeping the Jewish sabbath, they would be putting themselves under bondage to keep the Law, the very thing Jesus Christ died to free everyone of. Jews are no longer bound to the Law, and Gentiles never were. The Law was a Covenant sign to Israel, and particularly the Sabbath day rest.

Exodus 31:12-17
The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.' It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed."

Twice in the passage God said that the sabbath was a covenant sign between Him and Israel, nowhere does it speak of Gentiles observing the sabbath. There is no mandate for the Gentile masses to observe any portion of the Law, and specifically not the sabbath day rest. To submit to obedience to the Law of the sabbath is to submit to obedience to the entire Law, which would include bondage to the Law to obey every part of it. Disobedience to any part of the Law would then result in condemnation, eternal judgment. However, we as Christians are not bound to the Law of Moses, but to Grace. We are free from the bondage that obedience to the Law brings.

Another fact is that if we as Gentiles are to obey the Law of the sabbath, then we are to obey the entire Law of the sabbath, not just the requirement to cease from all work and rest, but also to put to death any that do not keep the sabbath. Why then are sabath day keeprs not putting to death those that do not observe the sabbath day Law? So, in point of fact, any sabbath keeper that does not put to death those that break the sabbath are themselves breaking the sabbath! You are either bound to keep it all, or you are no longer bound to any of it.

It is interesting that you believe that Paul upheld all ten of the of the Ten Commandments. Nowhere in the New Testament is the sabbath day Law upheld. All of the other Laws are because they are moral laws to which all men are bound. Let me revert back to Paul's lack of instructing the Gentile converts to obey the sabbath Law. Why wouldn't Paul instruct the Gentiles, or even Jewish Christian converts, to obey the sabbath Law? Because as Christians, those who are free from the bondage of the Law, we are free to worship on any day and treat that day as holy.

Let's step back and ask what was required to be included into the national promises (blessings) of Israel. First one had to be circumcised. If a male was born into an Israelite family and he was not circumcised, he was not included in the national blessing. If he wanted to be included as part of Israel, he would have to get circumcised as an adult, provided he could prove his lineage. That is how one enters into the national identity of Israel, but how does one maintain that blessing? Well, that was done through observing the sabbath day Law. Note God says about an Israelite (a son of Israel) not keeping the sabbath. "for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people." Of course, "cut off" could simply mean death, that it, to be cut off from among the living. But it is more probable that it means that he cannot and will not be counted as part of Israel in the resurrection. He has been cut off from Israel because he chose to profane the covenant sign between God and Israel. He is cut off from the national blessing of Israel that is to come.

So, if we are free from the Law, no longer in bondage to it, why are people so eager to submit themselves to the Law. We are free in Christ Jesus. We have never been subject to the Law as Gentiles, we have always been under Grace, even before the Law was given. If you, as a Gentile believer want to worship on Saturday, the biblical sabbath, then do so, but no because you are adhering to a Law that you were never under and are not bound to in Christ. Obedience to the Law can only condemn you, and if you revert to obeying the Law, then there is no longer forgiveness of sin. Jesus died to free us from the Law, why would you want to submit yourself to obedience to something you have been freed from?

Blessings,

Matthew
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