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Old 07-10-2010, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
If I say to you that because you are a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead that you are saved: how is that condemning you?

But if the RCC condemns you as one not quite saved yet even if you become a member of the RCC, do the seven sacraments, but do not perservere in charity.... I fail to see how you do not see that articulate condemnation as being given by the RCC.

All believers in Jesus Christ have been bought with a price and sealed as His thus they are saved. It is the extras that comes along that voids faith in Him and divides that hope with other means to obtain that which was freely given by God through faith in Jesus Christ.

It is not only the RCC that harbors labouring in unbelief, but the Protestant churches has it as well with the commitment to follow Christ as a means for the assurance of salvation.

Even the Pentecostal and charismatic circles have the false teaching of seeking to be filled by the Holy Spirit again as if that signature of glory would be shared at any other time than at the time of one's salvation by Jesus Christ. Truly, asking for the Holy Spirit when they have already received Him at salvation is labouring in unbelief as well and a false witness of the Gospel.

So Jesus warning of false prophets coming in applies to the body of believers and the doctrine of the Niocolaitanes should by His grace, wake everyone up to discern where they are right now in their walk with the Lord in being a witness of the Good News because one cannot be such a witness if they are also saying that they are not saved yet.

But the whole idea of being bought with a price whereas your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit is highly indicative that you are His and thus saved, but if one takes their eyes off of Jesus to something else as a means to obtain, then they are no longer resting in Jesus when they came to Him for salvation but voiding faith by labouring in unbelief.

Thus the call to every believer is to depart from iniquity because God knows everyone that are His even if their faith are overthrown.

2 Timothy 2:18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

So seek a personal relationship with God through the Son, Jesus Christ by departing from all those being a thief that seek to be the means to Him.

John 10: 7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8Allthat ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

I believe Jesus, and I thank Him that I am trusting Him on His Word.

Ok. So the protestants, charismatics, and pentecostales, are also heretical in your opinion.

Well good. At least we papists aren't alone in your condemnation.

Kind of makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
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Old 07-10-2010, 01:38 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I don't believe there is anything in the scriptures that specifically targets the RCC. Also, I don't believe the doctrine applies to the RCC.
If the Lord has not revealed that to you, so be it.

However, it is confrimed that there is a Satanic cult at the Vatican and that the Pope is fully aware of it, but doing nothing about the practises being performed there.

Spanish exorcist addresses claims of Satanic influence in Vatican :: Catholic News Agency (CNA)

Now how can the RCC claim that they are the church where the gates of hell will not prevail against her when satanism is inside of her?

How can a house stand when it is divided like that?

Revelation also prophesied the one in Satan's seat.

Revelation 2:I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

As much as there are other sources about the Illuminati linking satanism to the Vatican, that link is from a catholic news agency.

And the pivotal point of all the churches in Revelation is that there is no mention of "the Church" or the prophesied one to be of Peter at Rome, otherwise, each church addressed would simply be referred to the church at Rome, but again... there is no other authority that is to be above the elders and the deacons other than Jesus Christ the Lord Himself as the Head of the church.

But again, only the Lord can open the eyes of those in that slowly boiling pot, so it is not impossible for the Lord to recover that sleeping believer.

Quote:
It specifically shows that the deeds of the nicoltains is one in which someone believes that they are simply saved in their hearts and asks for confession and because of that confession (lip service) they will be saved. This is why it says that under the pretext of mercy they corrupt others. The RCC makes it clear that they don't believe that way but instead believe one must give up sinful ways. So the RCC is actually teaching contrary to the doctrine of the nicolatains.

A church that teaches that your are saved by simply believing and not by doing is the ones actually teaching the doctrine of the nicolatains.
Well thank you for showing how you see that differently, however, under the pretext of mercy as a system given is how one is being corrupted. If people rely on the confessional and penance to atone for sins, then under the system, they would never have the need to repent. They can continue to go to church, the confessional, do penance and yet continue to live in sin. The fact that on approaching death, even the most devout catholic still need the preist to gain assurance that they will be ready to meet their Saviour proves that the RCC is failing in teaching others to give up their sinful ways by the emans by which they give to obtain mercy.

Ever heard of catholic nuns and preists handing out condoms to their students in school? As I recall, it is reproted that they have told teh students that they know that they know they should not do it, but they are going to give that to them anyway just in case. It dos make me wonder if any catholic student looking at the nuns and preists handing out those condoms and saying that if they are keeping their chastity vows. If they that are leading by examples cannot do it, it would explain why they are handing our condoms, but if they can keep their vows, then why do they think the students will not be chaste until they get married?

It is a cheap shot, but a valid question because I believe I would think that if I was a catholic student.

Anyway, it appears that the Lord has yet to reveal the errors of the RCC to you. I leave that to Him.

Thanks again for sharing. Interesting how you would turn that around.

I have heard something similar when people argue against once saved always saved as if that gives a license to sin, but both of you guys are forgetting that Jesus is also the Good Shepherd as well as the Saviour and that we are saved as we trust Him to help us live as His what the law failed to do... and that is why it is written simply that the just shall live by faith as He will lead us away from temptations and deliver us from the evil one.... but catholicism is nothing but a system of mercy that sinners can hide behind without ever really repenting. That is like treating the symptons with home remedies without going to the doctor to treat the cause. Only Jesus can destroy the works of the devil in our lives so that sin shall not have dominion over us.

Anyway, I have not come across anyone preaching eternal security yet where they also preach they can do whatever they want including living in sin, but I have seen a catholic young man stressing out because he had thought he was going to die and he needed the priest for confessions, but he was not around in time before they wheel the guy into ER. Fortunately, he survived the injuries from the car accident, and when he met the priest, the guy spoke of his fears: the priest assured him that God heard his confession.

I do not know what the catholic guy said after that, but I would think if I was a devout catholic and freaking out like that before going in ER, I would think I would be mad for coming to him all these years when I could have just gone straight to the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins as promised by Him.

All I see is the RCC being a thief and saying they are Jews when they are not and now showing signs of satanism within the ranks that hardly depicts a church where the gates of hell will not prevail against her.

Time for all the believers in Jesus Christ to leave the RCC in having that personal reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
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Old 07-10-2010, 01:47 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
Ok. So the protestants, charismatics, and pentecostales, are also heretical in your opinion.

Well good. At least we papists aren't alone in your condemnation.

Kind of makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
It should make you raise your eyebrow since God addresses every church in Revelation and there were only seven kinds.

No church is exempt from false prophets.

If you only believe that there is "the Church", then you have to believe that Jesus prophesied false prophets coming in to "the Church".

When was the last reformation? In all that time, the RCC has been on vacation? It seems they rest on the laurels of the early church fathers, and yet Jesus said that in the latter days there will be a falling away from the faith whereas only a few will find it when He comes.

Surely with the Vatican gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles by making an agreement with other religions of the world is applicable. Even Pope John Paul stated that unbelievers that live just lives can still be saved is declaring that Jesus does not need to save them. Such an announcement cause the catholic faithful for an explanation as the Pope John Paul redoubled and reaffirmed the works of the RCC as necessary for salvation.

And by no means are the Protestant churches are exempt from this self examination.

Even believers that do not go to church need to go to Jesus for help to be found abiding in Him so that they are living that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

And it is not an opinion when scriptures reproves the works of any church as darkness.
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Old 07-10-2010, 02:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
It should make you raise your eyebrow since God addresses every church in Revelation and there were only seven kinds.

No church is exempt from false prophets.

If you only believe that there is "the Church", then you have to believe that Jesus prophesied false prophets coming in to "the Church".

When was the last reformation? In all that time, the RCC has been on vacation? It seems they rest on the laurels of the early church fathers, and yet Jesus said that in the latter days there will be a falling away from the faith whereas only a few will find it when He comes.
Since the first 400 or so years after Jesus' death COULD be considered the latter days of infiltration from false prophets into the true and faithful church . . . clearly the 1600+ years SINCE then would have to have been considered the LATTER DAYS from Jesus' point of view. He certainly could NOT have meant from our point of view 2000+ years later (today)!!

So all the years we consider our HISTORY are actually the latter days Jesus referred to . . . and the mainstream and Catholic churches have virtually ALL fallen away from the initial UR faith. That makes the FEW of us (UR) who have been led to that initial faith and truth the ones He will find when He comes.
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Old 07-10-2010, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
It should make you raise your eyebrow since God addresses every church in Revelation and there were only seven kinds.

No church is exempt from false prophets.

If you only believe that there is "the Church", then you have to believe that Jesus prophesied false prophets coming in to "the Church".

When was the last reformation? In all that time, the RCC has been on vacation? It seems they rest on the laurels of the early church fathers, and yet Jesus said that in the latter days there will be a falling away from the faith whereas only a few will find it when He comes.

Surely with the Vatican gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles by making an agreement with other religions of the world is applicable. Even Pope John Paul stated that unbelievers that live just lives can still be saved is declaring that Jesus does not need to save them. Such an announcement cause the catholic faithful for an explanation as the Pope John Paul redoubled and reaffirmed the works of the RCC as necessary for salvation.

And by no means are the Protestant churches are exempt from this self examination.

Even believers that do not go to church need to go to Jesus for help to be found abiding in Him so that they are living that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

And it is not an opinion when scriptures reproves the works of any church as darkness.

So you believe the exact same work of Christ goes into justification and sanctification.

As much as the prevailing wisdom on this forum tends towards a universal calvinism, I don't accept it. It is IMHO contrary to logic and the spirit of the totality of scripture.

That doesn't take away for me, one bit the work of Christ on the cross for you and me.

I started a thread on the sin of "presumption", but have not had any takers.

But like I've said many. many times, as much as I disagree with universal salvation for all, I hope I'm wrong.

BTW: pulling Papal pronouncements out of context and using simple sound bites are beneath the dignity of well meaning Christians who sincerely search for the truth. And are not fruitful.
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Old 07-10-2010, 03:01 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Since the first 400 or so years after Jesus' death COULD be considered the latter days of infiltration from false prophets into the true and faithful church . . . clearly the 1600+ years SINCE then would have to have been considered the LATTER DAYS from Jesus' point of view. He certainly could NOT have meant from our point of view 2000+ years later (today)!!

So all the years we consider our HISTORY are actually the latter days Jesus referred to . . . and the mainstream and Catholic churches have virtually ALL fallen away from the initial UR faith. That makes the FEW of us (UR) who have been led to that initial faith and truth the ones He will find when He comes.
By His grace and help, let's test that, shall we?

Jesus's warning of false prophets:

Matthew 7: 13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

The RCC is making an accord with other religions of the world. Pope John Paul said himself that unbelievers that live just lives shall be saved. So the idea here is that belief in Jesus Christ is not necessary. It isn't enough for the RCC to browbeat the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation as if that means a license to sin, but now, they incorporate other religions and even non-believers in this broad road to Heaven.

So how does UR fit in with this action of a false prophet in their gathering of grapes of thorns and figs of thistles? What is to keep UR from being the religion of the one world's church where everybody could still do their religion or whatever they want since belief in Jesus Christ is not necessary as all will eventually come to Him even from hell?

Seems to me UR is something the whole world would embrace, and continue on doing their thing: a congregation of thankless and non-worshipping "believers" towards Jesus Christ.

But...

Matthew 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

For the few that believe in UR as being the basis for holding to that faith: it would take away the necessity of all the warnings from Jesus, right?

And yet UR would call that extortion.
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Old 07-10-2010, 03:19 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
So you believe the exact same work of Christ goes into justification and sanctification.

As much as the prevailing wisdom on this forum tends towards a universal calvinism, I don't accept it. It is IMHO contrary to logic and the spirit of the totality of scripture.
I do not understand the reference to universal calvinism, but that is your perception.

Quote:
That doesn't take away for me, one bit the work of Christ on the cross for you and me.
No, it does not, but catholicism does take away something important: faith in Jesus Christ as being able to save. Trust is the basis for all relationship and if you do not take Him at His word, where then is that trust?

Quote:
I started a thread on the sin of "presumption", but have not had any takers.
God be willing, I shall look for it.

Quote:
But like I've said many. many times, as much as I disagree with universal salvation for all, I hope I'm wrong.
Umm... I understand that there is a difference between Universal reconciliation and universal salvation, but since people have a tendency to use those lables to mean something else as well, I would rather just refer to my faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Quote:
BTW: pulling Papal pronouncements out of context and using simple sound bites are beneath the dignity of well meaning Christians who sincerely search for the truth. And are not fruitful.
Well... by all means then... read this site that has the exact print in the local newspaper where I live many years ago. Due to the length of the article at the site and comparing it with the actual newspaper clipping that I had cut out to save in my Bible, the newspaper article ended at the end of the seventh paragraph. The site has more to the article apparently. I did not know there was more to it till I searched for that article on the internet.

Pope: Unbelievers Saved if They Live a Just Life- Beliefnet.com
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Old 07-10-2010, 03:46 PM
 
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Default "Message To Pergamus"

Revelation 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamus write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges:

13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, ever where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou has there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15 So hast thou also them that hold the DOCTRINE OF THE NICOLAITANES, which thing I hate. (the only instant where Jesus used the word HATE)

The word Nicolaitanes refers to those who are followers of Nicolas/Claus...Saint Nicolas, the bearer of gifts which we now call Santa Claus. Christmas (the birth of our Christ) is no longer so unless Santa Claus with the help of his reindeers bring TONS of worldly gifts! Totally usurping the thought of the Saviour's birth... No wonder his uses the word "HATE" in this passage.

I know you will probably counter this with, "this passage is referring to their time...not ours, etc." Would you be surprised to find out that the bible is addressing the people of ALL times? With God, nothing is impossible...
IMHO
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:27 AM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Ummm... I would think that it is on your part to estabish the connection that the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes is referring to the present day traditional holiday secular spirit of Santa Claus other than the similar name for a connection.
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Old 07-11-2010, 03:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
Revelation 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamus write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges:

13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, ever where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou has there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15 So hast thou also them that hold the DOCTRINE OF THE NICOLAITANES, which thing I hate. (the only instant where Jesus used the word HATE)

The word Nicolaitanes refers to those who are followers of Nicolas/Claus...Saint Nicolas, the bearer of gifts which we now call Santa Claus. Christmas (the birth of our Christ) is no longer so unless Santa Claus with the help of his reindeers bring TONS of worldly gifts! Totally usurping the thought of the Saviour's birth... No wonder his uses the word "HATE" in this passage.

I know you will probably counter this with, "this passage is referring to their time...not ours, etc." Would you be surprised to find out that the bible is addressing the people of ALL times? With God, nothing is impossible...
IMHO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
Ummm... I would think that it is on your part to estabish the connection that the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes is referring to the present day traditional holiday secular spirit of Santa Claus other than the similar name for a connection.
Perhaps the connection lies on "the Doctrine of Balaam"..."The difference between spiritual gifts and worldly gifts".

Christian life in terms of exercising worldly gifts rather than in terms of developing a godly character paralleled the story of Balaam when he exchanged his god given gift for worldly gain.

That Balaam had a clear vision of the blessed end that awaits the righteous is shown by his prayer:

"Let me die the death of the righteous,
And let my end be like his!" (Num. 23:10)

Yet Balaam's prayer was not granted. He was executed in God's judgment upon the Moabites, whose money had tempted him to align himself against God.

Perhaps...?

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