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Old 07-09-2010, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,295,939 times
Reputation: 869

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Hi all,
We've all heard about the sheep and goats in Matt. 25.
I have a couple specific questions about it, and I'd particularly like to hear from "traditional" Christians and their take on it.

1) It seems that Jesus is judging the sheep and goats based on their works. But I am usually told that we are saved only by our faith. So who's right?
2) I think that perhaps every person that has lived could be "appraised" for having helped one of the "least of these." Even Hitler (the favorite example) probably gave a glass of water to one of the "least of these."
Conversely, I'm quite sure that there are Bible-believing Christians who might stand condemned for NOT helping one of the "least of these."

In other words, I can't find in everyday life where some are always helping the "least of these" nor others who are never doing it.
So who is going to be cast away, and who is going to be saved?

Any insight is much appreciated.

Blessings,
brian
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Old 07-09-2010, 08:50 AM
 
40,187 posts, read 26,814,572 times
Reputation: 6059
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi all,
We've all heard about the sheep and goats in Matt. 25.
I have a couple specific questions about it, and I'd particularly like to hear from "traditional" Christians and their take on it.

1) It seems that Jesus is judging the sheep and goats based on their works. But I am usually told that we are saved only by our faith. So who's right?
2) I think that perhaps every person that has lived could be "appraised" for having helped one of the "least of these." Even Hitler (the favorite example) probably gave a glass of water to one of the "least of these."
Conversely, I'm quite sure that there are Bible-believing Christians who might stand condemned for NOT helping one of the "least of these."

In other words, I can't find in everyday life where some are always helping the "least of these" nor others who are never doing it.
So who is going to be cast away, and who is going to be saved?

Any insight is much appreciated.

Blessings,
brian
I take the "traditional Christian" qualification as particularly problematic, ahigherway . . . since there are more than 33,000 + versions at a minimum. Nevertheless . . . I am in the unenviable position of holding the traditional "End Results" of Christian belief . . . but NOT the traditional rationales for them. So I will answer anyway. IT is best not to think of your "Self" or soul as a monolithic entity of one particular character or other. It is best thought of as an ongoing "Symphony of Consciousness" (thoughts and feelings). Each moment and set of moments comprise the various "passages" and "movements" in the ongoing Symphony of YOU. Of course some of those passages will be extremely discordant (or "off key") . . . others will be beautiful and full of agape love, etc. etc. Think of God as the Maestro and Editor of our "symphonies" . . . removing the discordant and "off key" moments of our lives from the final unique "Soul Symphony" that is EACH of US. Some of our "symphonies" will be extremely short . . . due to massive editing (only 30-fold movements or passages??) . . . others will be a more elaborate "Allegro maestoso."
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Old 07-09-2010, 02:27 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,315 posts, read 1,574,261 times
Reputation: 145
Can faith be the guideline for salvation when they can see Him?

Have you ever wondered about this?

Matthew 13: 33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

I see this as three harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven.

Since the first harvest will be based on keeping the faith, trusting Him to keep us from falling and thus abiding in Him and to present us faultless to His glory as a vessel unto honour or the chaste bride for the Marriage Supper... at the pre tribulational rapture event which is alos when judgment will fall on the House of God first...

And after the post tribulation harvest, there will be those that received the mark of the beast that will be cast into the lake of fire as the sorting factor... the judgment following after His appearing and after the two angels.. one delivering the Gospel message to everybody in the world and the other in warning against the taking of the mark of the beast in this hour of trial that shall try all upon the earth during the great tribulation so that no one will be without excuse.

Then after 1000 year reign of Christ, Satan will be released from the pit for a season, and we do not know how long that is for him to cause descent and trouble after 1000 years for this season to come about...

Could your reference of Matthew 25 be the Kingdom judgment since it is referring to when the Son of man sits upon his throne of glory?

Matthew 25: 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

I mean really.

Can faith be the guideline for salvation when they can see Him?

What could be the guideline for sorting at the end of Satan's last rebellion? Could this be it in Matthew 25:31-34?
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Old 07-09-2010, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,440,999 times
Reputation: 420
Sheep and Goats were a works judgement for those under the law, the Old Covenant of Works.
The Sheep are the righteous...like David, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and so forth.
The Goats are apostate like Ahab, Caiaphas, and so forth.
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Old 07-10-2010, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,824,486 times
Reputation: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi all,
We've all heard about the sheep and goats in Matt. 25.
I have a couple specific questions about it, and I'd particularly like to hear from "traditional" Christians and their take on it.

1) It seems that Jesus is judging the sheep and goats based on their works. But I am usually told that we are saved only by our faith. So who's right?
2) I think that perhaps every person that has lived could be "appraised" for having helped one of the "least of these." Even Hitler (the favorite example) probably gave a glass of water to one of the "least of these."
Conversely, I'm quite sure that there are Bible-believing Christians who might stand condemned for NOT helping one of the "least of these."

In other words, I can't find in everyday life where some are always helping the "least of these" nor others who are never doing it.
So who is going to be cast away, and who is going to be saved?

Any insight is much appreciated.

Blessings,
brian
Yes, we are judged based on works. In fact, Paul himself tells us that Eternal Life (Salvation) is based on works:

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds (works):
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

James says that Faith without works is dead. So the question to pose to anyone that would tell you that we are saved WITHOUT works is "Can dead faith save you?".

See people misunderstood the verse concerning works and don't realize that we are indeed saved by works BUT NOT by OUR works - which are of the flesh (caters to the self). But instead we are saved by HIS (Christ) works through us TOWARDS others.

If you understand that, then all the rest of the verses on this subject will not seem contradictory or problematic.

I hope that helps.
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Old 07-11-2010, 09:17 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,186,153 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi all,
We've all heard about the sheep and goats in Matt. 25.
I have a couple specific questions about it, and I'd particularly like to hear from "traditional" Christians and their take on it.

1) It seems that Jesus is judging the sheep and goats based on their works. But I am usually told that we are saved only by our faith. So who's right?

2) I think that perhaps every person that has lived could be "appraised" for having helped one of the "least of these." Even Hitler (the favorite example) probably gave a glass of water to one of the "least of these."
Conversely, I'm quite sure that there are Bible-believing Christians who might stand condemned for NOT helping one of the "least of these."

In other words, I can't find in everyday life where some are always helping the "least of these" nor others who are never doing it.

So who is going to be cast away, and who is going to be saved?

Any insight is much appreciated.

Blessings,
brian


A careful reading of Matt 25 needs to be accompanied with other careful reading of other scriptures to get your answer for your questions. .
  • Before one thing is said by Jesus, the seperation takes place.
    • "When the Son of Man comes in his glory .... All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another"
  • This seperation is based on who you are..
    • " 'Come, you who are blessed ... 'Depart from me, you who are cursed' "
With careful reading you'll notice that both of these statements are spoken in the past tense....who are blessed, you who are cursed.

The reason it seems salvation based on works is because Jesus said that there is only one work God requires:

John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

People are seperated based on John 6:29, which is the same thing as to have faith

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

With careful reading you'll notice that Jesus spoke of this situation of being cursed\blessed (condemned\not condemned) before the "Son of Man comes in his glory" in John 3:18, 36


John 3:18
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."


John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

With careful reading you'll notice that when God blesses, he loves. God loves because He is pleased. That is the significance when believers are called "sons of God"

Matthew 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God


Galatians 3:26
[ Sons of God ] You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

It is only by faith that we are blessed...
It is only by faith God calls us a "son"...
It is only by faith people are righteous

God only says to the righteous..................those on his right

'Come, you who are blessed by my Father take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.'

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Old 07-11-2010, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,198 posts, read 34,429,291 times
Reputation: 10525
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi all,
We've all heard about the sheep and goats in Matt. 25.
I have a couple specific questions about it, and I'd particularly like to hear from "traditional" Christians and their take on it.

1) It seems that Jesus is judging the sheep and goats based on their works. But I am usually told that we are saved only by our faith. So who's right?
It is a parable, and not about works, but about faith. Those with faith (righteous) are separated from those without faith (unrighteous) during the day of judgement. The works are mentioned simply because works are fruits of faith. The sheep were not even aware of their works and they asked "when did we do these things", and this is further proof that Christ is referring to the state of their heart aka faith, and not the mentioned works.Believers of Christ can be identified by their works which honor God, and unbelievers by the lack of God honoring works. The goats too may have good works in their past, but since they were not done to honor God, they are meaningless during the day of judgement. So, the parable is not about works, but about faith. A believer is saved with or without works, and an unbeliever is doomed with or without works.
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Old 07-11-2010, 12:20 PM
 
40,187 posts, read 26,814,572 times
Reputation: 6059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It is a parable, and not about works, but about faith. Those with faith (righteous) are separated from those without faith (unrighteous) during the day of judgement. The works are mentioned simply because works are fruits of faith. The sheep were not even aware of their works and they asked "when did we do these things", and this is further proof that Christ is referring to the state of their heart aka faith, and not the mentioned works.Believers of Christ can be identified by their works which honor God, and unbelievers by the lack of God honoring works. The goats too may have good works in their past, but since they were not done to honor God, they are meaningless during the day of judgement. So, the parable is not about works, but about faith. A believer is saved with or without works, and an unbeliever is doomed with or without works.
"Christ is referring to the state of their heart" as it involves "love of God and each other" which the "works" were examples of.

"Believers of Christ can be identified by their works which honor God, and unbelievers by the lack of God honoring works." God is Honor . . . NOTHING we do can add to or detract from that. It is NOT about God's honor it is about US and our successful (or failed) development of "love for God and each other."

"The goats too may have good works in their past, but since they were not done to honor God, they are meaningless during the day of judgement." Since they were NOT done with "love of God and each other" in their hearts . . . they were void. They were done as "Lord,Lord" and "we believe and have faith" and all the external trappings . . . but it was all about THEM being "special" and faithful enough to win salvation from ET and gain the expected rewards in Heaven.

"A believer is saved with or without works, and an unbeliever is doomed with or without works." How exactly is this difference achieved? . . . never mind . . . I know . . . Magic!
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Old 07-11-2010, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Canada
589 posts, read 1,350,282 times
Reputation: 253
I think the 'sheep and goats' is the same as the 'wheat and tares' and even the 'clay and iron' that will not mix. It is really referring to the humans and the nephilim!

Jesus is warning us that in the end time the World will be infiltrated with these hybrid beings, they are the fleshy vessels created by the "ET's" that are awaiting possession by the millions of millions of demons to become the army of the Antichrist who himself is possessed by the Beast Apollyon. The demons will be released from the Bottomless Pit by Satan on the 5th Trumpet (Rev.9) like swarms of locusts. For 5 months they will inflict pain to anyone who defies them and all nations will yield to their rule for 3.5 yrs.
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Old 07-11-2010, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,295,939 times
Reputation: 869
So,
some say we are judged by works, others by faith. So much for that.

As far as the "who is the sheep, who is the goats" part, I still haven't read an answer I understand, except sciotamicks, who says that the judgment is for the OT people; and Mysticphd whose response has me thinking..

Blessings to all,
brian
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