An Elegant Explanation of Universal Redemption (believers, scripture, sin, Jesus)

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

Well, I see Mike's POV in this because I was (and still am to a certain degree) and ET'er, but I'm still trying to make up my mind once and for all about this business. So the study goes on........and on.....and on. But verses like Jesus saying, "If I be lifted up I will (not "I can" or "I am able") draw ALL men to Myself." It is an emphatic statement made by Jesus that not only is He able to but that He WILL (no if's, and's or but's about it) bring ALL men into the Kingdom. "But what if I'm not....?" Jesus: "Do you see any but's in there, buster? Have I not said, and will I not do??"

Also the example put forth in "Hope Beyond Hell" makes perfect sense to me. Jesus said, "If you then, being evil, know how to give good things to your children, how much more-so then will your Heavenly Father give good things to those that ask?"

Now how many parents out there lock their children up in a basement and torture them to death for having disobeyed? And what do we call a parent who does something like that? Didn't the child have a free will to choose between doing the right thing and the wrong? But when the child chooses to disobey is a good parent's punishment punitive or remedial---to hurt him just cause he disobeyed, or to teach the child the consequences of bad behavior so that he can become a better person? So then God, being much more loving, how does He lock a child of His in the basement of hell and torture him for all eternity? This is just not adding up in my mind. Again,

Thrill very good post .

Especially the last paragraph , our own conscience whether we are believer , unbeliever , Et'er or believe in UR tells us there is something wrong with the picture depicted in your last paragraph.

So just like it's quoted so often to the unbeliever and those thought to be heretics, "the You are without excuse scripture" before God because your own conscience cannot possibly agree with such a scenario being right .

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Thrill very good post .

Especially the last paragraph , our own conscience whether we are believer , unbeliever , Et'er or believe in UR tells us there is something wrong with the picture depicted in your last paragraph.

So just like it's quoted so often to the unbeliever and those thought to be heretics, "the You are without excuse scripture" before God because your own conscience cannot possibly agree with such a scenario being right .

Thanks, pcamps. And thanks for the rep.

There is a great mystery at work here, at least for me, but I am confident that ultimately the truth will prevail, whatever that truth may be. The trick is to just be persistent in one's study of both sides of the issue and make an honest comparison between the two. Now in the shortened version of Hope Beyond Hell I see this:

The Greek word ―"especially", is malista. Could it also mean "exclusively"? The only way to know is to observe how it is used in Scripture. Malista occurs twelve times. As you read these references, try substituting the word ―exclusively and see how it fits.

 I have brought him out before you all and especially [malista] before you King Agrippa (Ac. 25:26).
 Agrippa…especially [malista] because you are an expert (Ac. 26:2-3).
 Let us do good to all, especially
[malista] to those who are of the household of faith (Ga. 6:9-10).
 All the saints greet you, but especially [malista] those who are of Caesar‟s household (Ph. 4:20-23).
 If anyone does not provide for his own, and especially [malista] for those of his household, he has denied the faith... (1Ti. 5:3-8).
 Elders be counted worthy of double honor, especially [malista] those who labor in the word and doctrine (1Ti. 5:16-18).
 Bring the cloak…and the books, especially [malista] the parch-ments (2Ti. 4:13).
 There are many…deceivers, especially [malista] those of the circumcision… (Tit. 1:10-11).
 But more than a slave—a beloved brother, especially [malista] to me but how much more to you (Phil. 16).
 Reserve…for the day of judgment, and especially [malista] those who walk according to the flesh (2Pe. 2:9-11).

"Exclusively" doesn't work very well for some and it doesn't work at all for most. Of course these verses go to the more famous, "the Savior of ALL men, especially of those who believe..." And here is how the author sees it in its real context:

"He is, in an ultimate sense, the Savior of all men, (unbelievers and believers) but especially, at present, of believers."

[ans57]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

Well, I see Mike's POV in this because I was (and still am to a certain degree) and ET'er, but I'm still trying to make up my mind once and for all about this business. So the study goes on........and on.....and on. But verses like Jesus saying, "If I be lifted up I will (not "I can" or "I am able") draw ALL men to Myself." It is an emphatic statement made by Jesus that not only is He able to but that He WILL (no if's, and's or but's about it) bring ALL men into the Kingdom. "But what if I'm not....?" Jesus: "Do you see any but's in there, buster? Have I not said, and will I not do??"

Also the example put forth in "Hope Beyond Hell" makes perfect sense to me. Jesus said, "If you then, being evil, know how to give good things to your children, how much more-so then will your Heavenly Father give good things to those that ask?"

Now how many parents out there lock their children up in a basement and torture them to death for having disobeyed? And what do we call a parent who does something like that? Didn't the child have a free will to choose between doing the right thing and the wrong? But when the child chooses to disobey is a good parent's punishment punitive or remedial---to hurt him just cause he disobeyed, or to teach the child the consequences of bad behavior so that he can become a better person? So then God, being much more loving, how does He lock a child of His in the basement of hell and torture him for all eternity? This is just not adding up in my mind. Again,

Something to ponder...

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow

It's interesting that you posted Matthew 25:41 & 46. Why would you leave out 42-45? Maybe because it doesn't fit what you believe about salvation?

You tried that same tactic and made the same accusation when you questioned why I didn't include all of Acts 16:31. Your accusations hold no more water now then they did then.

That "depart from me/devil and his angels" verse that you always quote has nothing to do with believing!

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42For (in other words- because) I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

John 3:17 - For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The lake of fire is symbolic.

As I said. Those who do not receive Christ as Savior are judged-condemned on the basis of their human righteousness. In the case of the tribulational survivers of Matthew 25:31-46 , those who believe in Christ during the tribulation are faithful to Christ and are being rewarded at His return on the basis of the divine good they did, the deeds they did during the tribulation being found to be 'gold, silver, and precious stones, by which they inherit the kingdom as opposed to simply inhabiting it.

The tribulational unbelievers on the other hand, are judged and sentenced to the eternal fire on the basis of their human righteousness. God must and does always reject human good (Isa 64:6; Tit 3:5). The tribulation will be a time of great lawlessness. As a result, the love of many will grow cold. Matthew 24:12 ''And because lawlessness is increased, most peoples's love will grow cold. It is this coldness of heart of the unbeliever which is being addressed by Jesus as the basis for their judgment. Even were a tribulational unbeliever to do the things mentioned in Matthew 25:42-44, he is still an unbeliever and would be condemned on the basis of those deeds which would have still been from his human righteousness. Again, for those who will, simply refer to Revelation 20:11-15.

All sin was judged on the Cross and therefore cannot be judged again. Law of double jeopardy. The issue of sin as a barrier between man and God was removed at the Cross, and the issue then became attitude toward Christ. Although the unbeliever's sins were judged at the Cross, they were not forgiven. The unbeliever's sins which were committed prior to salvation are forgiven at the moment he believes in Christ. The believer's sins after salvation are forgiven when he names them as per 1 John 1:9. If a person dies without believing in Christ, his sins remain unforgiven (John 8:24) although they were judged and paid for. Those who reject Christ as Savior die in their sins but are condemned on the basis of their human righteousness which is made clear in Revelation 20:11-15.


As I said, universalists try to isolate verses from other verses and redefine them to promote universalism. All verses which speak of the neccessity of believing in Christ for salvation have to be understood along with the passages that speak of the eternal consequences for those who reject Christ as Savior. This is also in view in Matthew 25:41,46.

The lake of fire is a real place which is described in various ways. It is a place, not a state of being. It is where the devil and the other fallen angels, as well as unbelieving humanity will spend eternity.

Matthew 25:31-46 -- Works Salvation? (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1988/88march1.html - broken link)

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by ahigherway

The prodigal son's brother didn't want him to be taken back into the family because he wasn't considered "good enough." But the Father is the One in charge, and He took him back in and had a party for him, too!!

Blessings,
brian

The prodigal son is a parable about a reversionistic (backslidden) believer who changes his mind and returns home to his father. He never lost his sonship (the believer cannot lose his salvation).

That parable has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the reality of the unbeliever spending eternity in hell. The scriptures make it clear time after time, that the unbeliever will spend eternity in hell.

Universalists will take any passage they can to try to make a case for that heresy of universal salvation.

[thrillobyte]

If a person dies without believing in Christ, his sins remain unforgiven (John 8:24) although they were judged and paid for.

This makes no more sense in the hereafter than it does here on earth. Man's laws and morality were modeled essentially on God's law. We know inherently that murder is wrong---that theft is wrong---that adultery is wrong---and that helping someone out is right.

So any law student knows that once judgement is passed and that judgement is that the debt has been paid, then there remains no more payment to be made on that debt. If someone pays my fine for me, then the judge usually says, "The fine has been satisfied, the judgement of this court is that the defendant is to be released." Is the judge in any way going to get away with saying, "Well, someone paid your fine for you Mr. Thrill. I don't know why because I've seen your idiotic posts on the rapture and I certainly wouldn't pay it for you. Nevertheless, the fine still remains on the books and you still owe the court that money." We all know that that judgement is final and has been decided IN FAVOR of the defendant because someone, either the defendant or someone stepping in for the defendant, has satisfied the requirements of the law. In the same way, if Jesus paid for the penalty of man's sins, then their sins were judged and paid for. It's impossible for someone to pay what's owing and then still have something owing.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

Thanks, pcamps. And thanks for the rep.

There is a great mystery at work here, at least for me, but I am confident that ultimately the truth will prevail, whatever that truth may be. The trick is to just be persistent in one's study of both sides of the issue and make an honest comparison between the two. Now in the shortened version of Hope Beyond Hell I see this:



"Exclusively" doesn't work very well for some and it doesn't work at all for most. Of course these verses go to the more famous, "the Savior of ALL men, especially of those who believe..." And here is how the author sees it in its real context:

"He is, in an ultimate sense, the Savior of all men, (unbelievers and believers) but especially, at present, of believers."

Learning to listen to your heart and you conscience instead of the traditions of men which are shoved down our throats in Sunday school is a difficult thing to do ... But God speaks to us through our conscience, and if our conscience doesnt agree with everlasting torment of most people, or even one single person, maybe, just maybe, the spirit is trying to tell us something?

Let those who have an ear hear what the spirit is saying ...



I'm glad you're at least considering these things honestly Thrillobyte. Whatever conclusion you end up at, i respect for that ...


God bless bro ...

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

This makes no more sense in the hereafter than it does here on earth. Man's laws and morality were modeled essentially on God's law. We know inherently that murder is wrong---that theft is wrong---that adultery is wrong---and that helping someone out is right.

So any law student knows that once judgement is passed and that judgement is that the debt has been paid, then there remains no more payment to be made on that debt. If someone pays my fine for me, then the judge usually says, "The fine has been satisfied, the judgement of this court is that the defendant is to be released." Is the judge in any way going to get away with saying, "Well, someone paid your fine for you Mr. Thrill. I don't know why because I've seen your idiotic posts on the rapture and I certainly wouldn't pay it for you. Nevertheless, the fine still remains on the books and you still owe the court that money." We all know that that judgement is final and has been decided IN FAVOR of the defendant because someone, either the defendant or someone stepping in for the defendant, has satisfied the requirements of the law. In the same way, if Jesus paid for the penalty of man's sins, then their sins were judged and paid for. It's impossible for someone to pay what's owing and then still have something owing.

All your idiotic posts on the rapture have left me unable to rep you...

[mercy777]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

Well, I see Mike's POV in this because I was (and still am to a certain degree) and ET'er, but I'm still trying to make up my mind once and for all about this business. So the study goes on........and on.....and on. But verses like Jesus saying, "If I be lifted up I will (not "I can" or "I am able") draw ALL men to Myself." It is an emphatic statement made by Jesus that not only is He able to but that He WILL (no if's, and's or but's about it) bring ALL men into the Kingdom. "But what if I'm not....?" Jesus: "Do you see any but's in there, buster? Have I not said, and will I not do??"

Also the example put forth in "Hope Beyond Hell" makes perfect sense to me. Jesus said, "If you then, being evil, know how to give good things to your children, how much more-so then will your Heavenly Father give good things to those that ask?"

Now how many parents out there lock their children up in a basement and torture them to death for having disobeyed? And what do we call a parent who does something like that? Didn't the child have a free will to choose between doing the right thing and the wrong? But when the child chooses to disobey is a good parent's punishment punitive or remedial---to hurt him just cause he disobeyed, or to teach the child the consequences of bad behavior so that he can become a better person? So then God, being much more loving, how does He lock a child of His in the basement of hell and torture him for all eternity? This is just not adding up in my mind. Again,

Hebrews 12:10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.
1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
KJV- 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
1 John 3:1 How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. Believers in Christ are born of God (Spirit). New creation in Christ.
Not everyone is a child of God.

God Bless,
Mercy

[ans57]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

This makes no more sense in the hereafter than it does here on earth. Man's laws and morality were modeled essentially on God's law. We know inherently that murder is wrong---that theft is wrong---that adultery is wrong---and that helping someone out is right.

So any law student knows that once judgement is passed and that judgement is that the debt has been paid, then there remains no more payment to be made on that debt. If someone pays my fine for me, then the judge usually says, "The fine has been satisfied, the judgement of this court is that the defendant is to be released." Is the judge in any way going to get away with saying, "Well, someone paid your fine for you Mr. Thrill. I don't know why because I've seen your idiotic posts on the rapture and I certainly wouldn't pay it for you. Nevertheless, the fine still remains on the books and you still owe the court that money." We all know that that judgement is final and has been decided IN FAVOR of the defendant because someone, either the defendant or someone stepping in for the defendant, has satisfied the requirements of the law. In the same way, if Jesus paid for the penalty of man's sins, then their sins were judged and paid for. It's impossible for someone to pay what's owing and then still have something owing.

Originally Posted by katjonjj

All your idiotic posts on the rapture have left me unable to rep you...

Yeah, I did too...so here's to you!