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Old 07-09-2010, 04:59 PM
 
11,291 posts, read 11,306,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
All your idiotic posts on the rapture have left me unable to rep you...
Who could blame you, kat?

 
Old 07-09-2010, 05:11 PM
 
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I also like the rhetorical question the author of Hope Beyond Hell makes:

Quote:
Was Adam's power to condemn ALL men greater than Christ's power to save ALL men"
If so, should we be following a Savior who doesn't have the power to undo COMPLETELY what Adam has done?
 
Old 07-09-2010, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,443,373 times
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thrill,

The issue I see mostly amongst the UR crowd is that they see Phil 2 and Romans 14 all referring to an event where everyone that has ever lived and will live will bow their knees and confess with their tongue that Christ is Lord. However, they do indeed fail that Paul is directly referring to Isa 45, where it is only dealing with Israel eschatologically.

Unfortunately for those that are futurists, this is difficult because when reading it in a literal sense, it too, beckons Universalism. However, in futurism, which contradicts Universalism to some extent, in regards to the inheritance and punitive judgement of the saints and the wicked.

Israel is justfied at this event. Paul is directly referring to the ROTD in both instatnce in Romans 14 and Phillipians 2.

Isa 45:22-25 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth (eretz/LAND): for I [am] God, and [there is] none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall [one] say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: [even] to him shall [men] come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Too bad for UR.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 06:01 PM
 
Location: New England
32,331 posts, read 21,173,799 times
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He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? Matt 12 verse 11

The how much more God is so wonderful

How much more valuable is a man than a sheep ?

If we would pull our sheep out of a ditch , would we not take hold of it and lift it out , does the sheep have to say save me ?

How much more will the God of so much more lift us out the ditch of mire and clay ?
 
Old 07-09-2010, 06:09 PM
 
22,009 posts, read 16,770,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
This makes no more sense in the hereafter than it does here on earth. Man's laws and morality were modeled essentially on God's law. We know inherently that murder is wrong---that theft is wrong---that adultery is wrong---and that helping someone out is right.

So any law student knows that once judgement is passed and that judgement is that the debt has been paid, then there remains no more payment to be made on that debt. If someone pays my fine for me, then the judge usually says, "The fine has been satisfied, the judgement of this court is that the defendant is to be released." Is the judge in any way going to get away with saying, "Well, someone paid your fine for you Mr. Thrill. I don't know why because I've seen your idiotic posts on the rapture and I certainly wouldn't pay it for you. Nevertheless, the fine still remains on the books and you still owe the court that money." We all know that that judgement is final and has been decided IN FAVOR of the defendant because someone, either the defendant or someone stepping in for the defendant, has satisfied the requirements of the law. In the same way, if Jesus paid for the penalty of man's sins, then their sins were judged and paid for. It's impossible for someone to pay what's owing and then still have something owing.
Again, simply study the scriptures already given. The unbelievers sins were judged at the Cross. But they are not forgiven unless and until he believes in Christ for salvation. That is why he dies in his sins if he does not believe in Christ as John 8:24 states.

In like manner, the sins that a believer commits after salvation were already judged at the Cross, but they are not forgiven until they are named as per 1 John 1:9.

Every sin you will ever commit in your life was yet future when Christ was judged for them. That includes the sins you commit both as an unbeliever and as a believer. They were all judged. But as 1 John 1:9 makes clear, the sins you commit as a believer, and which were already judged on the Cross, are not forgiven until you name them. ''If we acknowledge our sins, He is faithful and just (because they were previously judged at the Cross) to forgive us our sins (known sins) and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (unknown sins.). And so with the unbeliever, his sins were judged at the Cross, but are not forgiven until he believes in Christ for salvation. Acts 10:43 ''Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.''

Having your sins paid for is one thing. Receiving forgiveness for those sins, receiving a perfectly righteous nature, and receiving eternal life is another. Those things require a faith decision to receive Christ as Savior.

But those unforgiven sins of the unbeliever are not the basis of his condemnation. Because they were already judged, the basis of his comdemnation is his human righteousness. His deeds as per Revelation 20:11-15. I made this clear both in post #3 and #14.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 06:39 PM
 
22,009 posts, read 16,770,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Most christians have been taught that the bible states in no uncertain terms that those who reject Christ are lost .It's funny that Jesus came to seek and save the lost , i guess the lost are just that much better at playing hide and seek than God . After all when Adam fell, God had to call out to Adam " Where are you ?" , because Adam was so good at hide and seek it passed on to all men along with death when he fell.
What Christ accomplished on the Cross makes salvation available to whosoever believes in Him for salvation (John 3:16). The Scriptures are equally clear that all who reject Christ as Savior are eternally lost (John 3:36; Matthew 25:41, 46; Rev 20:11-15, and many others).

Universalists disreqard or twist every scripture that reveals God's word on the matter.

Most Christians have sense enough to understand that eternal condemnation for the unbeliever is clearly taught in the Scriptures. But there are religious groups who simply will not believe the word of God on the matter.

It is a waste of time and energy to keep going over and over the same thing with these people.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 06:41 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,414,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again, simply study the scriptures already given. The unbelievers sins were judged at the Cross. But they are not forgiven unless and until he believes in Christ for salvation. That is why he dies in his sins if he does not believe in Christ as John 8:24 states.

In like manner, the sins that a believer commits after salvation were already judged at the Cross, but they are not forgiven until they are named as per 1 John 1:9.

Every sin you will ever commit in your life was yet future when Christ was judged for them. That includes the sins you commit both as an unbeliever and as a believer. They were all judged. But as 1 John 1:9 makes clear, the sins you commit as a believer, and which were already judged on the Cross, are not forgiven until you name them. ''If we acknowledge our sins, He is faithful and just (because they were previously judged at the Cross) to forgive us our sins (known sins) and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (unknown sins.). And so with the unbeliever, his sins were judged at the Cross, but are not forgiven until he believes in Christ for salvation. Acts 10:43 ''Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.''

Having your sins paid for is one thing. Receiving forgiveness for those sins, receiving a perfectly righteous nature, and receiving eternal life is another. Those things require a faith decision to receive Christ as Savior.

But those unforgiven sins of the unbeliever are not the basis of his condemnation. Because they were already judged, the basis of his comdemnation is his human righteousness. His deeds as per Revelation 20:11-15. I made this clear both in post #3 and #14.

NO matter how many times you guys repeat yourselves, it doesn't make any more sense. Everlasting torment is the most senseless and vain imagination that has ever existed and no matter how you attempt to prove it by the scriptures it will never make sense.

Only people who want to believe that most will suffer for ever will continue to believe it in the face of all the evidence, not because it makes any real sense, but because the belief serves their own distorted views of their own self righteousness, and because it supports their personal disdain for most of the people who have ever lived on planet earth.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 06:47 PM
 
Location: New England
32,331 posts, read 21,173,799 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

Most Christians have sense enough to understand that eternal condemnation for the unbeliever is clearly taught in the Scriptures. But there are religious groups who simply will not believe the word of God on the matter.

It is a waste of time and energy to keep going over and over the same thing with these people.
Most christians are taught what you believe .

I agree with you last sentence , you have proven you do not have an open heart , you have got it all worked out already , and because of this you cannot be taught anything .
 
Old 07-09-2010, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,827,272 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Well, I see Mike's POV in this because I was (and still am to a certain degree) and ET'er, but I'm still trying to make up my mind once and for all about this business. So the study goes on........and on.....and on. But verses like Jesus saying, "If I be lifted up I will (not "I can" or "I am able") draw ALL men to Myself." It is an emphatic statement made by Jesus that not only is He able to but that He WILL (no if's, and's or but's about it) bring ALL men into the Kingdom. "But what if I'm not....?" Jesus: "Do you see any but's in there, buster? Have I not said, and will I not do??"

Also the example put forth in "Hope Beyond Hell" makes perfect sense to me. Jesus said, "If you then, being evil, know how to give good things to your children, how much more-so then will your Heavenly Father give good things to those that ask?"

Now how many parents out there lock their children up in a basement and torture them to death for having disobeyed? And what do we call a parent who does something like that? Didn't the child have a free will to choose between doing the right thing and the wrong? But when the child chooses to disobey is a good parent's punishment punitive or remedial---to hurt him just cause he disobeyed, or to teach the child the consequences of bad behavior so that he can become a better person? So then God, being much more loving, how does He lock a child of His in the basement of hell and torture him for all eternity? This is just not adding up in my mind. Again,

Wow, thrillobyte! I'm very happy to see that God is working with you on this. He is revealing His Power to you! I love this.

Remember this one:

Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

See God is going to show that the true power and reward is to save even those that didn't want to. He will bring them around to wanting to. He can turn any and every heart when and as He desires.

Good stuff thrillobyte.

I praise God for His wonderful work He is doing with you.

Paul
 
Old 07-09-2010, 06:57 PM
 
22,009 posts, read 16,770,811 times
Reputation: 8785
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Most christians are taught what you believe .

I agree with you last sentence , you have proven you do not have an open heart , you have got it all worked out already , and because of this you cannot be taught anything .


Because I know the truth, I cannot be deceived by those who have themselves been deceived by Satan. I stand in the truth of the word of God. And I pronounce universalism to be straight out of the mouth of Satan.

Final comment!!! I have no need to get the last word in.
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