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Old 07-09-2010, 12:37 PM
 
11,272 posts, read 11,290,108 times
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How Many is Whosover? by John Gavazzoni

I must agree with much it has to say, even though many here think I am an ET'er. This essay truly has me thinking.

 
Old 07-09-2010, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,294,229 times
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"It is not that He will bear our sins if we believe; it is that He has borne our sins, and the force of that truth shall bring us to faith."
Very nice.

It is written that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus IS LORD.

No man can say that Jesus IS LORD EXCEPT BY THE HOLY GHOST.
Praise God! We'll get there, through His Spirit!

Blessings,
brian
 
Old 07-09-2010, 02:18 PM
 
21,930 posts, read 16,733,317 times
Reputation: 8747
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
How Many is Whosover? by John Gavazzoni

I must agree with much it has to say, even though many here think I am an ET'er. This essay truly has me thinking.
Simply compare scripture with scripture!!! You are told quite clearly in John 3:36 of the contrast between those who believe and those who don't. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides in him. Some will believe and others will not believe.

Matthew 25:41,46 is straight forward in its statement that there will be those who go away into eternal punishment. ''Then He (Jesus Christ) will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;... 'And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'Again, the contrast is made between those who will go away into eternal punishment in the eternal fire, and those who will go into eternal life. Those who believe in Christ have eternal life. Those who reject Christ will go away into the eternal fire. Those who reject Christ are judged on the basis of their own works which are the product of their human righteousness.

Compare Matthew 25:41,46 with Revelation 20:11-15 which likewise states that those who have rejected Christ are judged on the basis of their deeds and cast into the eternal fire.

Daniel 12:2 declares, ''And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Yet again, those who have everlasting life are contrasted with those who are resurrected to everlasting disgrace and contempt.


The fella who wrote that article is guilty of doing what all universalists do. He took a verse out of context, isolated it from other passages, redefined the verse, and attempted to use it to prove the heresy of all men being saved. The word of God is emphatic that there will be many who are eternally lost.

Most Christians have sense enough to understand that the Bible states in no uncertain terms that those who reject Christ are eternally lost. But there will always beModerator cut: deleted religious groups that claim to be Christian while denying one or more of the fundamental truths of the word of God. Most of the people who are a part of those Moderator cut: deleted religious groups will never come to accept the truth.

Last edited by june 7th; 07-09-2010 at 05:14 PM..
 
Old 07-09-2010, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,680,231 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
How Many is Whosover? by John Gavazzoni

I must agree with much it has to say, even though many here think I am an ET'er. This essay truly has me thinking.
I love this line:
"What is the judgement? The judgement is that "there is no other name under heaven, given among men, whereby we MUST be saved." That's God's judgement. You MUST be saved. Non-negotiable. "

Non-negotiable... it is God's will.

Great article.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 03:01 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,772,840 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Simply compare scripture with scripture!!! You are told quite clearly in John 3:36 of the contrast between those who believe and those who don't. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides in him. Some will believe and others will not believe.

Matthew 25:41,46 is straight forward in its statement that there will be those who go away into eternal punishment. ''Then He (Jesus Christ) will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;... 'And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'Again, the contrast is made between those who will go away into eternal punishment in the eternal fire, and those who will go into eternal life. Those who believe in Christ have eternal life. Those who reject Christ will go away into the eternal fire. Those who reject Christ are judged on the basis of their own works which are the product of their human righteousness.

Compare Matthew 25:41,46 with Revelation 20:11-15 which likewise states that those who have rejected Christ are judged on the basis of their deeds and cast into the eternal fire.

Daniel 12:2 declares, ''And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Yet again, those who have everlasting life are contrasted with those who are resurrected to everlasting disgrace and contempt.


The fella who wrote that article is guilty of doing what all universalists do. He took a verse out of context, isolated it from other passages, redefined the verse, and attempted to use it to prove the heresy of all men being saved. The word of God is emphatic that there will be many who are eternally lost.

Most Christians have sense enough to understand that the Bible states in no uncertain terms that those who reject Christ are eternally lost. But there will always be Moderator cut: Orphaned religious groups that claim to be Christian while denying one or more of the fundamental truths of the word of God. Most of the people who are a part of those Moderator cut: orphaned religious groups will never come to accept the truth.
It's interesting that you posted Matthew 25:41 & 46. Why would you leave out 42-45? Maybe because it doesn't fit what you believe about salvation? That "depart from me/devil and his angels" verse that you always quote has nothing to do with believing!

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42For (in other words- because) I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

John 3:17 - For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The lake of fire is symbolic.

Last edited by june 7th; 07-09-2010 at 05:15 PM..
 
Old 07-09-2010, 03:16 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,843,412 times
Reputation: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Simply compare scripture with scripture!!! You are told quite clearly in John 3:36 of the contrast between those who believe and those who don't. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides in him. Some will believe and others will not believe.

Matthew 25:41,46 is straight forward in its statement that there will be those who go away into eternal punishment. ''Then He (Jesus Christ) will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;... 'And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'Again, the contrast is made between those who will go away into eternal punishment in the eternal fire, and those who will go into eternal life. Those who believe in Christ have eternal life. Those who reject Christ will go away into the eternal fire. Those who reject Christ are judged on the basis of their own works which are the product of their human righteousness.

Compare Matthew 25:41,46 with Revelation 20:11-15 which likewise states that those who have rejected Christ are judged on the basis of their deeds and cast into the eternal fire.

Daniel 12:2 declares, ''And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Yet again, those who have everlasting life are contrasted with those who are resurrected to everlasting disgrace and contempt.


The fella who wrote that article is guilty of doing what all universalists do. He took a verse out of context, isolated it from other passages, redefined the verse, and attempted to use it to prove the heresy of all men being saved. The word of God is emphatic that there will be many who are eternally lost.

Most Christians have sense enough to understand that the Bible states in no uncertain terms that those who reject Christ are eternally lost. But there will always be Moderator cut: orphaned religious groups that claim to be Christian while denying one or more of the fundamental truths of the word of God. Most of the people who are a part of those Moderator cut: orphaned religious groups will never come to accept the truth.
Moderator cut: Deleted

You instuct someone to "simply" compare scripture with scripture and then present a commentary that has nothing to do with the initial instruction and implies things that are not apparent from the text your comparing.

Moderator cut: deleted you assert what you already have worked out as being simple and easily discerned Moderator cut: Deleted

You try to hide this, but that is what you do.

Last edited by june 7th; 07-09-2010 at 05:18 PM..
 
Old 07-09-2010, 03:29 PM
 
Location: New England
32,287 posts, read 21,144,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post


Most Christians have sense enough to understand that the Bible states in no uncertain terms that those who reject Christ are eternally lost. But there will always be cults and religious groups that claim to be Christian while denying one or more of the fundamental truths of the word of God. Most of the people who are a part of those Moderator cut: orphaned religious groups will never come to accept the truth.

Most christians have been taught that the bible states in no uncertain terms that those who reject Christ are lost .It's funny that Jesus came to seek and save the lost , i guess the lost are just that much better at playing hide and seek than God . After all when Adam fell, God had to call out to Adam " Where are you ?" , because Adam was so good at hide and seek it passed on to all men along with death when he fell.

Last edited by june 7th; 07-09-2010 at 05:20 PM..
 
Old 07-09-2010, 03:37 PM
 
11,272 posts, read 11,290,108 times
Reputation: 3474
Well, I see Mike's POV in this because I was (and still am to a certain degree) and ET'er, but I'm still trying to make up my mind once and for all about this business. So the study goes on........and on.....and on. But verses like Jesus saying, "If I be lifted up I will (not "I can" or "I am able") draw ALL men to Myself." It is an emphatic statement made by Jesus that not only is He able to but that He WILL (no if's, and's or but's about it) bring ALL men into the Kingdom. "But what if I'm not....?" Jesus: "Do you see any but's in there, buster? Have I not said, and will I not do??"

Also the example put forth in "Hope Beyond Hell" makes perfect sense to me. Jesus said, "If you then, being evil, know how to give good things to your children, how much more-so then will your Heavenly Father give good things to those that ask?"

Now how many parents out there lock their children up in a basement and torture them to death for having disobeyed? And what do we call a parent who does something like that? Didn't the child have a free will to choose between doing the right thing and the wrong? But when the child chooses to disobey is a good parent's punishment punitive or remedial---to hurt him just cause he disobeyed, or to teach the child the consequences of bad behavior so that he can become a better person? So then God, being much more loving, how does He lock a child of His in the basement of hell and torture him for all eternity? This is just not adding up in my mind. Again,
 
Old 07-09-2010, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
7,559 posts, read 11,906,156 times
Reputation: 4519
"If I be lifted up", and He was.

"I will draw all", and He will.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,294,229 times
Reputation: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Simply compare scripture with scripture!!! You are told quite clearly in John 3:36 of the contrast between those who believe and those who don't. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides in him. Some will believe and others will not believe.

Matthew 25:41,46 is straight forward in its statement that there will be those who go away into eternal punishment. ''Then He (Jesus Christ) will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;... 'And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'Again, the contrast is made between those who will go away into eternal punishment in the eternal fire, and those who will go into eternal life. Those who believe in Christ have eternal life. Those who reject Christ will go away into the eternal fire. Those who reject Christ are judged on the basis of their own works which are the product of their human righteousness.

Compare Matthew 25:41,46 with Revelation 20:11-15 which likewise states that those who have rejected Christ are judged on the basis of their deeds and cast into the eternal fire.

Daniel 12:2 declares, ''And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Yet again, those who have everlasting life are contrasted with those who are resurrected to everlasting disgrace and contempt.


The fella who wrote that article is guilty of doing what all universalists do. He took a verse out of context, isolated it from other passages, redefined the verse, and attempted to use it to prove the heresy of all men being saved. The word of God is emphatic that there will be many who are eternally lost.

Most Christians have sense enough to understand that the Bible states in no uncertain terms that those who reject Christ are eternally lost. But there will always be Moderator cut: orphaned religious groups that claim to be Christian while denying one or more of the fundamental truths of the word of God. Most of the people who are a part of those Moderator cut: orphaned religious groups will never come to accept the truth.
The prodigal son's brother didn't want him to be taken back into the family because he wasn't considered "good enough." But the Father is the One in charge, and He took him back in and had a party for him, too!!

Blessings,
brian

Last edited by june 7th; 07-09-2010 at 05:22 PM..
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