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Old 07-10-2010, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
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We're at a standstill - God wants us to choose Him, but no one can stand against His will, either.

 
Old 07-10-2010, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
I am quite sure you managed to meet the vast majority of people yourself in those 10 years Experts in the field tell a different story.

Nevertheless,my point is that most of the people who would populate your version of a hell since the time of Christ will do so without ever hearing about this Christ they were supposed to accept.But your compadres routinely portray them as evil sinners refusing to make a choice for Christ.
You don't have to ask everyone separetley. If you go to Sweden where they teach Christianity in school, you can safely assume that all Swedes have heard of Christ since all Swedes go to school. And since practically all European countries are indeed considered Christian countries, you can assume they have at least heard of Christ. Have you ever met a European who has never heard of Christ? I have not, and I lived there for over 10 years.

The Bible says that those who have never heard of Him, will be judged by the law written in their hearts. God gave a concience to everyone. And that those who have heard, and rejected are worse off than those who never heard.

Either way, everyone is accountable to God, whether or not they have heard of Him. You will be judged based on what God has revealed to you, so there is no excuse. God would not have told his followers to spread the word, if people who had not heard of him were not condemned. Otherwise, what would be the point?

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
 
Old 07-10-2010, 12:30 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,562,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You don't have to ask everyone separetley. If you go to Sweden where they teach Christianity in school, you can safely assume that all Swedes have heard of Christ since all Swedes go to school. And since practically all European countries are indeed considered Christian countries, you can assume they have at least heard of Christ. Have you ever met a European who has never heard of Christ? I have not, and I lived there for over 10 years.

The Bible says that those who have never heard of Him, will be judged by the law written in their hearts. God gave a concience to everyone. And that those who have heard, and rejected are worse off than those who never heard.


This is where you and others that like to make these assumptions and statements go so dead wrong.I will give you myself as an example.I was born and raised in a medium size west Texas town in which religion was a big deal and the Southern Baptists were the biggest group in town.I attended VBS at a S Baptist church,and even went to one occasionally as a kid.Yet,when as a young adult,I heard Billy Graham call Christ the God-man and equate Christ with God,I was dumbfounded and was under the impression that BG had just committed a serious sin.After all,he just said a man was actually God.And I had somewhat of a background in Christianity,and if I had been asked,would have identified myself as a Christian.Indeed,I thought of myself as a Christian.And before somebody decides to get snarky,I am not a dummy.I have an IQ of over 140 and made straight A's in school.I am not a genius,but I don't have any problems with assimilating and comprehending information.I had been exposed to Christianity,in Texas,the buckle of the Bible Belt.But I did not fully understand Christianity or the Person of Christ until a preacher sat me down and explained it all when I was an adult.

So to assume that everyone in a so called Christian society understands the Gospel is foolish in the extreme.And in Africa and Asia it would be even more so.

Quote:
Either way, everyone is accountable to God, whether or not they have heard of Him. You will be judged based on what God has revealed to you, so there is no excuse. God would not have told his followers to spread the word, if people who had not heard of him were not condemned. Otherwise, what would be the point?
This is the typical copout for evangelicals.If you can make yourself accept this,good for you.Some people are more critical thinkers and realize the flaws in this.Shades of hell are irrelevant if you go to hell without a chance to ever make a decision on Christ,when going to hell is based ON making a decision for Christ.

But my point was more this.A poster claimed that people in hell are there because they willingly choose to deny Christ and choose to sin( see post 11 this thread).Such a statement is stupid.Will the Dalai Lama or Thich Nhat Hanh go to your hell because they are evil willful sinners glorifying in the flesh and their sinful ways,or will they go there simply because they decided not to believe the Christ of the likes of Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker?
 
Old 07-10-2010, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,260 posts, read 34,468,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
This is where you and others that like to make these assumptions and statements go so dead wrong.I will give you myself as an example.I was born and raised in a medium size west Texas town in which religion was a big deal and the Southern Baptists were the biggest group in town.I attended VBS at a S Baptist church,and even went to one occasionally as a kid.Yet,when as a young adult,I heard Billy Graham call Christ the God-man and equate Christ with God,I was dumbfounded and was under the impression that BG had just committed a serious sin.After all,he just said a man was actually God.And I had somewhat of a background in Christianity,and if I had been asked,would have identified myself as a Christian.Indeed,I thought of myself as a Christian.And before somebody decides to get snarky,I am not a dummy.I have an IQ of over 140 and made straight A's in school.I am not a genius,but I don't have any problems with assimilating and comprehending information.I had been exposed to Christianity,in Texas,the buckle of the Bible Belt.But I did not fully understand Christianity or the Person of Christ until a preacher sat me down and explained it all when I was an adult.
I don't think you understood what I just told you. Had you died before you heard Graham, you would have been judged according to what had been revealed to you so far. You already knew of salvation did you not? Also, you not knowing that God and Jesus are the same would not have prevented you form being saved. You do not have to know everything about the Bible in order to be saved. If you accept Christ as your Lord and saviour, then denominational differences won't be an issue since nothing can take it away from you. The Bible encourages believers to study, so they can lean on their own and won't have to take other people's word for it.
 
Old 07-10-2010, 01:21 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,562,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I don't think you understood what I just told you. Had you died before you heard Graham, you would have been judged according to what had been revealed to you so far. You already knew of salvation did you not? Also, you not knowing that God and Jesus are the same would not have prevented you form being saved. You do not have to know everything about the Bible in order to be saved. If you accept Christ as your Lord and saviour, then denominational differences won't be an issue since nothing can take it away from you. The Bible encourages believers to study, so they can lean on their own and won't have to take other people's word for it.
So then you are saying that a person can be saved without knowing about Christ?
 
Old 07-10-2010, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 910,330 times
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To many peoples, they grew up learning about Buddha and his philosophy of life or ALLAH, or substitute any other sect of religianity), and this deity or path of life became very real to them so when others come and declare to them a DIFFERENT form of life, that man is vile and sinful, they think it as odd as when a person who only has heard of Christ thinks it odd to follow the path of Buddha. They simply view it as nonsense, UNLESS God opens their spiritual eyes and heart to really see and understand.

This is WHY God sent missionaries/evangelists out, to be the means whereby the ELECT during this age are called.

If we are judged only on what we have been shown supernaturally, then it is NOT GOOD to send missionaries, for then it makes it worse on judgment day for those who cannot believe these strange people with their strange ideas and can't believe the 'fairy tales' about Adam and Eve, Satan, the parting of the Red Sea, etc. The same way we should be rather grateful and happy if our child dies before the age of accountabiity because then we KNOW that he/she will be eternally happy in heaven.

And how is it GOOD NEWS to be told all your ancestors, dead loved ones and friends, are going to rot in hell or be eternally nothing but don't worry, YOU will be happy.
 
Old 07-10-2010, 01:42 PM
 
Location: New England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
What so many people seem to forget is that the Samaritan was not in the ditch by choice. Christ ultimate will respect the choice that those who refuse Him make. Someone once posted something on these forums to the effect of stating that God will trample on the free will of some and force people to love Him. That is so completely contrary to the God of the Bible. God is love and yes God's love is able to conquer anything and everything, however what so many seem to lack understanding in, is that love can never be forced. Can love at times use force as a means to an end? Yes, such as a parent forcing a child to do something unpleasant for the child yet the parent knows that it is for their own good; like taking them to get a immunization shot. The parent does force the child to do something out of love, however the child can never be forced to love the parent. God created us with the freedom of choice because He wanted us to love Him of our own volition, anything less would not really be love. Choice is the entire reason for this whole war between God and Satan. Our choice is what is being fought over. God asks us to choose Him, for He has already chosen us, however the choice is ours. If we choose to stand on the side of Satan God has made it clear what awaits. Doesn't that mean that God loves those that make that choice any less? No. Does it mean that God's love is incapable of saving them? No, not at all. God's love is there for them and it has the power to save all, but God will not save those that do not want salvation. In every human life since Adam and Eve, where someone has reached the mental maturity to understand right from wrong, God will have made it clear to them at some point throughout their life, what He wants for them and what awaits those who choose His way and what awaits for those that choose Satan's way. God knows that for those that choose Satan's way of life, Heaven would be a miserable place, and so in His infinite mercy He ends their existence. He doesn't burn and torture them eternally. Fire is simply the method used to end their existence. I believe that there will be many that, while they were not sinners at all by worldly standards, they clearly wanted no part of Heaven and they will simply be consumed by the fire in a nanosecond, much like flash paper. For those who so clung to sin that they wrought unspeakable evil on others, they might be consumed at a pace more likened to that of a piece of burning metal which takes some tome to burn completely up. This universe will one day see a time when pain and torment will not exist on anywhere.
Forgive me for not reading beyond the first 16 words of your post . Death passed to all men through one man's sin , i would say that was not our choice but a result of what passed on to us.Do you think the person Jesus healed on the sabbath was sick by choice ? . Death passed unto all men .

Last edited by pcamps; 07-10-2010 at 02:00 PM..
 
Old 07-10-2010, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,443,373 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
That wasn't a question.
It wasn't an answer, just a confirmation.
 
Old 07-10-2010, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,443,373 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
In the sense of understanding the idea of a divine being who they must accept in order to be saved,yes..
The whole world knew it then, think Rahab....the evidence is as far back as you can look.......Cain......need I say more?

Joshua 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.

All of us are without excuse.
 
Old 07-10-2010, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,260 posts, read 34,468,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
So then you are saying that a person can be saved without knowing about Christ?
The Bible says everyone will answer for their sins. There are no excuses. How did Abraham believe God? He didn't know about Jesus, but God had reveled some knowledge to him and he believed it, and this belief is enough for his salvation.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 07-10-2010 at 02:13 PM..
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