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Old 07-11-2010, 02:05 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilvan View Post
I believe Luke 17:26-30 is talking about the time at the end of the Great Trib when the 7 Vials of God's Wrath is poured down on those who took the Mark.

During the 3.5 yrs of Great Trib everyday life is back to normal ONLY to those who took the Mark and worship the Beast's image. Anyone who refuses to obey the False Prophet's order to worship the Beast's image will face beheading, this IS the Great Trib of the Church!
If the great tribulation is to last seven years and it starts as soon as the command is given to build the Jewish Temple, then Luke 17:26-30 deals with as it would apply to all since no one could know the day nor the hour when judgment falls on the House of God first.

Quote:
The believers are not raptured out before the GT, in fact the Scriptures tell us many believers will fail and yield to the Mark so that in the end they will be weeping and gnashing their teeth when they see their fellow believers come down as eternal saints. (Luke 13:28-29).
That is why judgment falls on the House of God first because not many will be ready when He comes.

The foolish virgins will have oil for their lamps but they will be weeping for the loss of their first inheritance at the Marriage Supper.

That was why God began Revelation in addressing them to give instructions on how to avoid being left behind.

Quote:
The rapture of the elect is at the end of the Great Trib. (Matt 24:29-31). 'Rapture' is really the instantaneous death and resurrection in the "twinkling of an eye" so technically it is a part of the 1st Resurrection of the saints.
If you are referring to the use of the term, first resurrection, then note the parameters of that first resurrection as those not having received the mark of the beast and died for the word of God... and etc.

Revelation 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Now remember that about the rest of the dead lived not again until... but yet Post tribbers will quote verses about how God seperates the sheep from the goats in giving that judgment.

To me, the first resurrection mentioned is the first of that second harvest that involves those left behind and going through the great tribulation.

Quote:
The purpose of this 'gathering of the saints' is to raise the eternal army of Jesus Christ to rule with him on earth as kings and priests for 1000 yrs. It is NOT to save the Church from persecution. In fact the 3.5 yrs of Great Trib is really God's plan to purge the Church before he forms his ruling team. In Rev 7:9 & 14 and Rev 20:4... John saw the Great Multitude of believers who were beheaded in the GT, they are given thrones to rule with Jesus Christ on earth for 1000 yrs.
Jesus said that when He returns, because of false prophets, only a few will find it and thus why judgment had to fall on the House of God first to restore those left behind to the path of righteousness for His name's sake as the foolish virgins will have oil for their lamps and shining and the prodigal sons will be returning to the Father and that is why there will be many saints beheaded during the great tribulation because that is how bad things are now as many have fallen away from the faith or set aside their relationship with the Lord for wild living for the reason why judgment must fall on the House of God first.

If Gentile believers did not need the correction, then why would the despensation of the Gospel is going back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses? That is because as the Jews rejected the Gospel and thus the despensation of the Gospel went to the Gentiles, and thus because of the falling away of the faith, the times of the Gentiles is coming to an end where the despensation of the Gospel will go back to the Jews.

Every man in his order.

1 Corinthians 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

The firstfruits is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb before the great tribulation.

Then afterwards... those that are Christ's at His coming as in at the end of the great tribulation.

Then you have that last battle at the end of the milleniel reign when Satan is loosed for a season.

So that is three harvests that makes up the whole of the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 13:33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Note below how the first watch is the only one served a meal.

Luke 12: 37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

The pre tribulational rapture is not some escape from persecution: It is judgment on the House of God. That has to come first.
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Old 07-11-2010, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 866,417 times
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"...in a moment" (1 Co 15:52) is in atomos which is Plato's word for what we call "elements," those on the Periodic Table of elements, things like gold, or sulfur, or carbon, or whatever. These could not be reduced into any purer form of something. Nothing more could be "cut out" of them. Literally it means "un-cut." It is a peaceable transition, not disruptive, just taking the next step in the journey. This is how we are changed.

"...in a twinkling of an eye" (1 Co 15:52) is in rhipe meaning either "to blink," or simply "cast your view to aother place." "Turn your eyes upon Jesus. Look full in His wonderfull face..." This is how we are changed.

"...in the last trumpet..." (1 Co 15:52) The breath of God resonating in vessels prepared according to His specifications. These are of silver, reflecting the image of the Maker. It is certain of those who are redeemed from among men. Our vile bodies shall be changed like unto His body of glory. The sounding of the seven (7) trumpets, part of the Feast of Tabernacles, brings about irreversible changes among the children of men.

Last edited by JamesMRohde; 07-11-2010 at 10:56 PM..
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,730,922 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
Care to share why those references cannot be used?
They can be used but have nothing to do with flying away into the literal clouds to avoid a time of trouble. AISI of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
If the whole OP is a call to be ready and be found abiding in Him, I fail to see your charge of irresponisbility.
The charge was in response to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
and have hope of Jesus return to fix the mess that it is in and hope for renewal of the earth ...
Really - no offense to anyone. I have been guilty abdication and it's only because I didn't know any better. Waiting and hoping for Jesus to come back and fix everything is not the answer. Recognizing the presence of Jesus and the kingdom within us is the answer. AISI.

"Greater things shall you do"
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:44 PM
 
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May I ask this question of rapture believers?

It is,without question,a sin to walk out on your spouse (sans abuse or adultery).

SO my question is...would Jesus really do that to our unsaved spouses? ..leave them behind while essentially stealing someone's spouse and or parent (for the ones above the age of accountability not worthy of being taken) away from them? Is this not the same as we are told not to do here on earth...do not leave your spouse,do not divorce,do not walk out on your family,etc?

I realize this may be put into the context of being the same or equal to death;but essentially,raptured believers do not die.they are taken away suddenly,removed alive and stay alive.JAT.This is a confusing subject for me.I don't know what to think.
I do know that having a spouse leave was certainly a very negative experience for me,and I have a difficult time imagining Jesus doing the same thing willingly to anyone..i.e.-taking their spouse/parent away,as we are commanded not to leave even an unbeliever,if already married to one.Jesus doing this seems equivalent to spouse stealing/homewrecking.
wouldn't this also make God and Jesus hypocrites? If not, then why not?

in that context..any thoughts?
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,691,191 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC122 View Post
May I ask this question of pre-trib rapture believers?

It is,without question,a sin to walk out on your spouse ( sans abuse or adultery).

SO my question is...would Jesus really do that to our unsaved spouses? ..leave them behind while essentially stealing someone's spouse and or parent (for the ones above the age of accountability not worthy of being taken) away from them? Is this not the same as we are told not to do here on earth...do not leave your spouse,do not divorce,do not walk out on your family,etc?

I realize this may be put into the context of being the same or equal to death;but essentially,raptured believers do not die.they are taken away suddenly,removed alive and stay alive.JAT.This is a confusing subject for me.I don't know what to think.
I do know that having a spouse leave was certainly a very negative experience for me,and I have a difficult time imagining Jesus doing the same thing willingly to anyone..i.e.-taking their spouse/parent away,as we are commanded not to leave even an unbeliever,if already married to one.Jesus doing this seems equivalent to spouse stealing/homewrecking.

in that context..any thoughts?
I totally agree, it is confusing. I think one poster stated that to be raptured is instantaneous death (so as to be resurrected). After all... all people die... why would those raptured be any different.

To be raptured you are caught up in something. I believe the apostles meant to convey that we are caught up in loving one another ...not taken from the earth.
So do you go with your inner voice telling you something is wrong with that picture or do you believe what you are told by others?
I think if God's laws are written in my heart then I will go with the inner voice.
My 2 cents.
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:57 PM
 
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Indeed,thanks katjonjj.
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:35 AM
 
Location: Canada
589 posts, read 1,351,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I totally agree, it is confusing. I think one poster stated that to be raptured is instantaneous death (so as to be resurrected). After all... all people die... why would those raptured be any different.

To be raptured you are caught up in something. I believe the apostles meant to convey that we are caught up in loving one another ...not taken from the earth.
So do you go with your inner voice telling you something is wrong with that picture or do you believe what you are told by others?
I think if God's laws are written in my heart then I will go with the inner voice.
My 2 cents.
The Scriptures tell us that God allotted to man 6000 yrs of ruling himself, after that Jesus Christ will establish God's Kingdom on earth and rule for 1000 yrs. This is a mirror of the Sabbath where we have 6 days of doing our own things but on the 7th we are commanded to rest and honor God.

So we are now at the end time and God is about to raise up his ruling team of eternal saints to rule with Jesus in that 1000 yrs. This is the reason why the Christians who qualify must be given the gift of eternal life so they could rule the humans on earth for 1000 yrs.

The elect who are alive right at the end of 6000 yrs must be "raptured" to join the resurrected ones (Noah, Abraham, Isaac, David, the Apostles, etc.) as they rise up to the sky to meet Jesus. This event is called the "gathering of the saints" and it will happen on the Feast of Trumpets, the feast also known as "the day no one knows the day or hour but the Father in heaven."

Immediately after the 1st resurrection, the 7 Vials of God's Wrath will be poured down on all humans who have the Mark of the Beast. This judgment takes place within the 10 days from the Feast of trumpets to the Day of Atonement.

The Day of Atonement is when Jesus Christ and his Army of eternal saints come down on Mt.Olive to establish God's Kingdom on earth. They will destroy the 200 Million Nephilim army of the Beast gathered in Megiddo in the prophesied Battle of Armageddon.

I think most Christians don't understand the purpose of the rapture and its timing because they don't keep the 4th Commandment on Sabbath and the Feasts. For violating God's Law they have excluded themselves from being a part of the elect, the only group of believers God promised to protect in the Great Tribulation.
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:51 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilvan View Post
The Scriptures tell us that God allotted to man 6000 yrs of ruling himself, after that Jesus Christ will establish God's Kingdom on earth and rule for 1000 yrs. This is a mirror of the Sabbath where we have 6 days of doing our own things but on the 7th we are commanded to rest and honor God.

So we are now at the end time and God is about to raise up his ruling team of eternal saints to rule with Jesus in that 1000 yrs. This is the reason why the Christians who qualify must be given the gift of eternal life so they could rule the humans on earth for 1000 yrs.

The elect who are alive right at the end of 6000 yrs must be "raptured" to join the resurrected ones (Noah, Abraham, Isaac, David, the Apostles, etc.) as they rise up to the sky to meet Jesus. This event is called the "gathering of the saints" and it will happen on the Feast of Trumpets, the feast also known as "the day no one knows the day or hour but the Father in heaven."

Immediately after the 1st resurrection, the 7 Vials of God's Wrath will be poured down on all humans who have the Mark of the Beast. This judgment takes place within the 10 days from the Feast of trumpets to the Day of Atonement.

The Day of Atonement is when Jesus Christ and his Army of eternal saints come down on Mt.Olive to establish God's Kingdom on earth. They will destroy the 200 Million Nephilim army of the Beast gathered in Megiddo in the prophesied Battle of Armageddon.

I think most Christians don't understand the purpose of the rapture and its timing because they don't keep the 4th Commandment on Sabbath and the Feasts. For violating God's Law they have excluded themselves from being a part of the elect, the only group of believers God promised to protect in the Great Tribulation.
All that about a future generation when it was THAT generation to whom Jesus actually spoke to about THAT generation...

The apostles clearly expected the Lord to return WITHIN their lifetimes... Why do you apply it to the future? Where is your justification for that?
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Old 07-12-2010, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
All that about a future generation when it was THAT generation to whom Jesus actually spoke to about THAT generation...

The apostles clearly expected the Lord to return WITHIN their lifetimes... Why do you apply it to the future? Where is your justification for that?
It was in the Book of Daniel... he wanted to know the meaning of the things he wrote down but the angel told him the prophecy is sealed and only to be understood by the wise in the END time.

A big part of the prophecy is really meant for the end time generation to understand. WHY? So they can escape the coming Great Tribulation! It is really meant for the elect... those who keep the Commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

How do we know we are in the end time? Jesus gave us the clues and the nos. of days to count. In Daniel we know the last 7 yrs is called the 70th Week... so it is a Sabbath Cycle. It is telling us Jesus Christ will return on a Sabbath Year! Could it be 2016? Most definitely!

By keeping the 4th Commandment, we will know the exact days of the events. Based on this information, it is very likely the 7 yrs has started on the Feast of Trumpets Sept 19, 2009 and will end in the evening before the same Feast on Oct.3, 2016!

The evening of Oct 2, 2016 is the "Gathering of the Saints" when the 2 Witnesses who were killed 3.5 days earlier are resurrected (when the New Moon appeared) and they rise up to the sky (Rev 11:11-12). They are the first of the first-fruit saints actually declaring the start of the Feast of Trumpets in the tradition of ancient Israel!

You see in Ancient Israel the Feast of Trumpets is the only feast that starts at the beginning of a lunar month which may have 29 or 30 days, so NO ONE knows the day or hour... until at least 2 witnesses see the first sliver of the New Moon to declare the start of the Feast.

By counting backward, we know the Abom. of Desolation will happen on Sabbath Day March 23, 2013. The Antichrist will stop the animal sacrifices on Passover March 25, 2013.

The False Prophet (Pope?) will order the AC's images to be set up in all churches and temples; the compulsory compliance to worship will start in 30 days. So the Great Tribulation starts 30 days later on April 22, 2013 when the people who refused to worship the image are rounded up and beheaded. This day is exactly the midpoint or 1260 days to the end.

Going further backward... we know the natural disasters of Trumpets 1 to 4 must come in 2012 This cataclysm is brought about by the passage of the star Wormwood (a.k.a. Planet X, Nibiru, the Destroyer). In the aftermath of the disasters the EU will draft the famous Prince to become its Leader to solve the problems. In view of the collapse of the economy and all money becoming worthless (the prophecy says it happened in 1 hour), he will institute the Mark as the new monetary system.

I believe Dec 21, 2012 is the day Satan comes down from Heaven with the key to release Apollyon (a.k.a. Abaddon, Nimrod, Maitreya, Krishna, etc) from the Bottomless Pit. It is most likely also the day the Prince is assassinated with a fatal wound to the head. He will be dead for 3 days and 3 nights and then miraculously resurrected by the False Prophet on the eve of Christmas; by then he is no longer the human Prince but only the fleshy body to be possessed by Apollyon!

Just as the elect keeps the Feasts as appointed times with God... the apostate Church keeps Christmas as the appointed time with Apollyon! The encyclopedias described Christmas as the birth of Nimrod, which is another name of the Beast Apollyon.

So Jesus and the saints come to establish God's Kingdom on earth on the Day of Atonement Oct 12, 2016!

Last edited by wilvan; 07-12-2010 at 02:15 AM..
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Old 07-12-2010, 02:06 AM
 
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I find it very peculiar that you come up with such specific dates, wilvan.They are merely no more than guesses on your part.Perhaps when Jesus said 'no man will know that day or hour',(including Himself) he really meant it.

However,your explanation still did not answer my original questions.
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