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Old 07-10-2010, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Jasher 1:9

"And the serpent, which God had created with them in the earth, came to them to incite them to transgress the command of God which he had commanded them."

We know the serpent is a reference to the Devil or Satan as other verses point out.

But well do you think you know who Satan is or what Satan is?

Consider the first mention of this figure in Genesis:

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Why would the serpent being compared to those things that are made and is spoken of as "he".

Right here is should be noted that Satan here is speaking to Eve but what you may not notice is that Adam is with her:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

So we have the Serpent talking to Eve and we later see that Adam is actually with her. But we don't ever see where Adam is debating with Eve concering the fact the fruit she offers him is forbidden.

Now what is the first thing Adam does when they get question by God concerning this matter? Why didn't Adam immediately blame Satan since Adam was with Even when the Serpent was speaking with Eve? Note Adam's response:

Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Adam here is accusing Eve! Why? - consider this:

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

So Eve was made by God for Adam.

My belief here is that Adam was the one speaking to Eve and enticing her as a way to get approval from God since Eve was given to Adam. The Serpent is just a reference to that Spirit of Disobedience that Adam was exhibiting.

Now notice the last part of the condemnation for Eve:

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

My belief is that when Eve provided the direction for eating of the forbidden fruit and gave to Adam that she would have been usurping Adam (had there been a subjection established at that time). So now with Eve being subject to Adam, it would be Eve to remain upon Adam for the decision and not vice-versa.
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Old 07-10-2010, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,668,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Jasher 1:9

"And the serpent, which God had created with them in the earth, came to them to incite them to transgress the command of God which he had commanded them."

We know the serpent is a reference to the Devil or Satan as other verses point out.

But well do you think you know who Satan is or what Satan is?

Consider the first mention of this figure in Genesis:

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Why would the serpent being compared to those things that are made and is spoken of as "he".

Right here is should be noted that Satan here is speaking to Eve but what you may not notice is that Adam is with her:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

So we have the Serpent talking to Eve and we later see that Adam is actually with her. But we don't ever see where Adam is debating with Eve concering the fact the fruit she offers him is forbidden.

Now what is the first thing Adam does when they get question by God concerning this matter? Why didn't Adam immediately blame Satan since Adam was with Even when the Serpent was speaking with Eve? Note Adam's response:

Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Adam here is accusing Eve! Why? - consider this:

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

So Eve was made by God for Adam.

My belief here is that Adam was the one speaking to Eve and enticing her as a way to get approval from God since Eve was given to Adam. The Serpent is just a reference to that Spirit of Disobedience that Adam was exhibiting.

Now notice the last part of the condemnation for Eve:

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

My belief is that when Eve provided the direction for eating of the forbidden fruit and gave to Adam that she would have been usurping Adam (had there been a subjection established at that time). So now with Eve being subject to Adam, it would be Eve to remain upon Adam for the decision and not vice-versa.
I heartily agree. On some points we differ but basically it makes more sense if Adam is the "serpent" ... especially the "enmity" between the serpent and the woman...LOL

"A quarrelsome wife is like a constant dripping on a rainy day;" (Pro. 27:15)

On a serious note.. this all implies that there is no mythical figure called satan but rather a spirit or state of being
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Old 07-10-2010, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Florida
62,987 posts, read 34,311,857 times
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Sorry, but I'll go with the Bible on this one. Read on, and you will see there is no way the serpent was Adam.

Eve says "the serpent deceived me". She did not say "Adam deceived me".

13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

Then God talks them one at the time. Why would he do that, if Adam was the serpent?

First he talks to the serpent, and says the seed of the woman will crush his head. He refers to Jesus crushing the head of Satan.


14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."


And then God talks to the woman"

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."


And then he talks to Adam. Now, this would be unnecessary if Adam ans serpent was one and the same, since he already talked to the serpent.

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
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Old 07-10-2010, 04:24 PM
 
8,100 posts, read 7,068,811 times
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Thats it God cursed Satan with power over defenceless animals in Genesis 3:14...... ``And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this thou are cursed ABOVE all cattle and ABOVE every beast of the field upon thy belly shall thou go and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life```` ..This is a curse against the defenceless animals and man who does not go to God for freedom from this power of this serpant,,... plus a blessing for believer who can use this Word of God to be free of the serpants power.... Deliverance for those who confess `` Devil and demons upon your belly shall you go and dust shall thou eat all the days of your life in Jesus mighty name``....believing Jesus will deliver you and send the demons to go for this the Word of God and there is power when we confess it and HIS Spirit will respond to the Word of God in Jesus name......
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Old 07-10-2010, 04:45 PM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,572,386 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Sorry, but I'll go with the Bible on this one. Read on, and you will see there is no way the serpent was Adam.

Eve says "the serpent deceived me". She did not say "Adam deceived me".

13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

Then God talks them one at the time. Why would he do that, if Adam was the serpent?

First he talks to the serpent, and says the seed of the woman will crush his head. He refers to Jesus crushing the head of Satan.


14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."


And then God talks to the woman"

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."


And then he talks to Adam. Now, this would be unnecessary if Adam ans serpent was one and the same, since he already talked to the serpent.

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
Noticed that the word "BECAUSE" was only rendered when God referred to the serpent and to Adam. An acknowledgment of the law of cause and effect...
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Old 07-10-2010, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I heartily agree. On some points we differ but basically it makes more sense if Adam is the "serpent" ... especially the "enmity" between the serpent and the woman...LOL

"A quarrelsome wife is like a constant dripping on a rainy day;" (Pro. 27:15)

On a serious note.. this all implies that there is no mythical figure called satan but rather a spirit or state of being
See, here is something interesting:

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Here sin is defined as that which has come forth - originating not from some crazy other being called "Satan" but rather from within. Yet we read also that the works of the devil is sin:

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So here we have an association of the works of Satan originating from within man.

So when I see that it says that Jesus was tempted of Satan, then what I believe it means is that He was tempted by the lusts that were originating in His own mind and yet He didn't allow those lusts to "conceive" and "bring forth".

From that perspective (knowing how much power He had), it because very obvious that the more power you have that the more restraint you must show - the more weight of obedience your under.

Even Peter was called Satan. Not because Satan was another creepy being with a pitchfork but because Peter was exhibiting the disobedient nature born from his own thoughts.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

I believe in that verse - is Satan - in that it refers to the "spirit" that works in those children of disobedience.
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Old 07-10-2010, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,668,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
See, here is something interesting:

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Here sin is defined as that which has come forth - originating not from some crazy other being called "Satan" but rather from within. Yet we read also that the works of the devil is sin:

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So here we have an association of the works of Satan originating from within man.

So when I see that it says that Jesus was tempted of Satan, then what I believe it means is that He was tempted by the lusts that were originating in His own mind and yet He didn't allow those lusts to "conceive" and "bring forth".

From that perspective (knowing how much power He had), it because very obvious that the more power you have that the more restraint you must show - the more weight of obedience your under.

Even Peter was called Satan. Not because Satan was another creepy being with a pitchfork but because Peter was exhibiting the disobedient nature born from his own thoughts.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

I believe in that verse - is Satan - in that it refers to the "spirit" that works in those children of disobedience.
Yes.... Exactly. He was tempted just as we are but not by some mythical creature on the highest point on the temple (he was in the wilderness the whole time) but tempted by his own wills and desires.

What I found interesting is the story of Moses and his 40 days on the mountain...

Also.. Jesus was LED BY THE SPIRIT to be tempted.
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Old 07-10-2010, 08:24 PM
 
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Like kat and Paul . . . I know exactly who Satan and the Serpent are . . . but I despair of ever breaking through the superstitious magical nonsense that seems to dominate religious beliefs about God. The serpent is our limbic system (or reptilian brain). It is completely without thought . . . but it houses ALL our emotions and motivations. In response to Gldnrule's promptings . . . I have started a manuscript detailing my synthesis in summary form. It is very rough and will require an excellent editor to sequence and order the component parts since it addresses both the science and the scriptural. I do not really have that kind of time or energy . . . but I am assembling the pieces, Gldnrule. I even created a picture designed to relate the early symbolism of Genesis to various structures responsible for our brain's function. Here is a preview of it using an inset of an actual brain and brain stem (cutout down the middle to expose the inner structures). The brain and brain stem (spinal cord) are not separate. They are physically and functionally one (our central nervous system).

The composition and functioning of our brain would seem to be necessary supporting detail to fully appreciate the symbolism of the metaphors embedded in these mythical accounts. However, I will endeavor to keep the discussion as uncomplicated as possible while conveying the essential information. All animals, including man, have what is called the old brain or basal ganglion (reptilian brain). This old brain is the seat of our emotions and inner drives. We are unique in that our big brain has the necessary capabilities to enable us to override or suppress these inner drives (e.g. to turn the other cheek). This distinction between the old brain and our big brain will be clearer after I describe the behavioral differences between them.

Our big brain is, essentially, our cerebrum. The frontal lobe of our cerebrum is credited with being the seat of thought or consciousness.The other lobes enable us to see, hear, and activate the various muscles of our body. Coordination of these diverse functions is achieved through the mechanism of association.

Association is the process of recording, like a tape recorder, all signals that come into a particular lobe. Better than three-fourths of the area of the cerebrum is devoted to association storage. For instance, everytime you see something the combination of signals that represents the object is stored in the occipital lobe, the lobe that controls vision. These signals are also sent to the frontal lobe through association neurons. This is a key factor in memory, learning and thinking.

The frontal lobe has access to all the information that comes into all the other lobes. It is the central receiving station for monitor and control of our body. The association neurons connecting it with the other lobes and the nerve fibers connecting it with the rest of the central nervous system are like the various controls situated on the amplifier in a complex stereo system. It has all the necessary controls for input and output, volume and tone, high range and low range filters, muting circuits, and so on. In fact, it even has two separate channels. The cerebrum is divided down the middle by a longitudinal fissure and each half corresponds to a separate side of our body. (the picture above was cut down the middle to reveal just one side.)

Most scientists believe that our mind is merely a function of our extremely versatile brain, consequently, they conclude, our brain is the reason we have a mind. This circular logic is like saying that transportation is a function of our extremely versatile cars, therefore, cars are the reason we have transportation. Science credits our brain with being the instrument of our superiority over the lower animals. But as our sense of self and inner experience of control suggests, since it is an instrument, there must be someone or something using it.

Despite this overwhelming evidence of our own perceptions of ourselves, brain theorists and neurologists studiously avoid the concept of a homunculus, or a separate coordinator of our thought processes that is not a physical part of the brain itself. As Nobel Laureate Crick unambiguously states,

. . . Is there any idea we should avoid? I think there is at least one: the fallacy of the homunculus. . . .Most neuroscientists believe there is no homunculus in the brain. Unfortunately it is easier to state the fallacy than to avoid slipping into it. The reason is that we certainly have an illusion of the homunculus: the self. There is probably some good reason for the strength and persistence of this illusion. It may reflect some aspect of the overall control of the brain, but what the nature of this control is we have not yet discovered

Yes, there probably is a real good reason for the strength and persistence of this "illusion," IT ISN'T AN ILLUSION! Like a stereo multiplex, our brain must have someone to operate the controls to produce the desired results. That someone is our soul and it is not a "physical" part of the brain, any more than the music in a stereo system is a "physical" part of the stereo.

Our soul has a partner in the production of our consciousness and behavior. That partner has some very definite ideas about the source and kind of "music" the soul should play through the stereo system of the brain. The pituitary gland is this partner. The pituitary is the most important organ we have. Its physical location, cradled in a complete bowl of bone, attests to its importance. It is the regulator for the entire body and becomes the key defense plant if our body is threatened in any way, real or imagined.

The pituitary is located in the other behavioral division of the brain called the limbic system, or "old brain." I shall consider with it the hindbrain and the entire autonomic nervous system. In essence, this covers the entire lower portion of the brain and spinal cord. The spinal cord and the brain are continuous both structurally and functionally. This entire old brain is what is sometimes referred to as the reptilian brain and it looks very much like a serpent.

This second behavioral grouping contains every factor necessary to animal life, every instinct, drive, and capability except thought. ( The process of thinking is restricted to the cerebrum.) This old brain is the motivation and emotion center. This center is virtually identical to the one in the lower animals and is the regulator of our emotions. Emotions are not simply mental conditions. They are chemical and physical changes in the body that result from hormone stimulation of various glands and control centers in the body. The pituitary, the master gland, produces the various hormones to stimulate all the others.

Motivation and emotion in the human animal are intricate multifaceted phenomena. However, the complexity of human emotions cannot be attributed solely to this emotion center. It is the marriage of soul and animal that produces the complex human emotions and motivations. The complexity arises from the inclusion of our soul (consciousness) in what would otherwise be the typical animal responses. Our consciousness provides many sources of response that are lacking in animals. For example, the limbic system cannot distinguish between real and imaginary situations. Its tendency to respond to imagination as if it were reality, explains most of the complication in human emotions.

Animals do not imagine and are spared these complex emotions. For them the pituitary must be stimulated by actual situations or prior conditioning.
When we or our circumstances signal the pituitary in a positive manner it will produce conditions in the body that are almost uniformly beneficial. We call these the pleasant emotions. When we or our circumstances signal the pituitary in a negative manner and it will produce conditions we call the unpleasant emotions. While these conditions endow us with potentially life-saving temporary enhancements of our capabilities, they can be very harmful to our body if prolonged.

If we or our circumstances fail to signal, we do not emote. If we transmit pleasant signals, regardless what is occurring, we will experience the pleasant emotions. For some adepts, it is possible to visualize pleasant situations, even during extremely painful physical circumstances and, thus, be spared the pain. Unfortunately, that kind of discipline is not easy, nor is it possible in all situations. However, whether they are good or bad, emotions are chemical and physical changes in our body resulting from the transmission of signals to the old brain - our animal nature.

The old brain is the source of all traditionally forbidden behavior in the scriptures. The source of forbidden behavior in Eden was the serpent. Viewed anatomically, the old brain is shaped exactly like a serpent and is referred to as the reptilian brain as mentioned earlier. The serpent's tongue is the pituitary gland with its dual capability of stimulating good or bad emotions in our body, the true forked tongue of the serpent! This analogy of the old brain to a serpent is startlingly clear, even a little eerie, in the photograph I have used in my picture. The simile is particularly compelling when you realize that its functions are as automatic, unthinking, and serpentlike as the actions of a true serpent.

Every time the old brain receives pain stimuli it will react with retaliation or avoidance signals. Every time it receives pleasure stimuli it will react with requests for more. When it detects a deficiency of blood sugar, it will react with hunger signals. If it detects a deficiency of water in the body, it will react with thirst signals. These reactions are completely automatic, unthinking, and unalterable. Even though the feelings of hunger and thirst normally are physiologically triggered, we can actually create them without the physical conditions by thinking about being hungry or thirsty. But, whether we tell it we are hungry or our physiology tells it we are hungry, the serpent will always give us the same answer: "Eat!" This is true of every drive. This uncompromising internal serpent will always give the same answer to each problem, regardless how it is made aware of the problem.

The bulk of the stimulation received by our animal nature originates in our thought processes. In short, we think our animal nature into excitation and the possible combinations and sequences are limitless. Human beings are the only animals possessing the ability to abstract and create such an unlimited source of stimulation. However, there is usually little to be gained by stimulating our animal nature over a particular situation if we cannot allow the response we know it will tell us to make. Once it receives a stimulus and sends a drive signal, that drive must be satisfied by some response. We can determine what will be a satisfactory response only in a limited way. That's why it is more prudent to prevent the stimulus and avoid any need to prevent any unacceptable responses.

In addition to a motivation and activation center, successful animate life requires coordinated physical response. The component of the old brain responsible for that coordination is called the cerebellum. It looks somewhat like the cerebrum, but smaller and less complex. It has no thought function, just physical controls. With a damaged cerebellum, for instance, a bird with otherwise perfect muscles and wing structure is unable to fly. When cut open (as in the photo), the cerebellum contains white nerve fibers in the shape of a tree. It is often called the "Arbor Vitae" or tree of life because without it there could be no behavior at all.

The "tree of life" that is the cerebellum must be controlled to control behavior, good or bad. In humans the frontal lobe of the cerebrum is the dominant control center for the cerebellum - control of any behavior generated by our animal nature. Essentially, in humans there are two operators of the body, our soul and the old brain. In the lower life forms, the old brain is dominant and the cerebrum is often missing or extremely small. The difference this makes in the variety of response is significant.

Thus, our soul has the means to "eat" of the "tree of life" by exercising self-control. The secret to effective self-control lies in not stimulating our animal nature by allowing our thoughts to dwell on self-pity, pleasure-seeking, or concern over problems. Such thinking only stimulates the serpent and you know how useful its answers are. The mental processes involved in achieving cerebral control over drives generated by the old brain are the way our souls achieve maturity and strength for eternal life.

The successful development of our soul is the main purpose of human life. The process for achieving our purpose is very simple in principle. The common principle in practically all civilizations and at all stages of their development is self-denial. In the primitive cultures the various forms of denial were motivated by taboos. In the more civilized cultures, denial was seen more directly as the means of delivering the soul from its earthly bonds to make possible a spiritual contact with eternal truth and the deity.

In the story of Genesis, most religious interpreters would have us believe, God became angry with us because we did not control our animal body and did what we were forbidden to do. This silly idea of God getting angry over a fruit, symbolic, sexual or otherwise, is an excellent example of what can be achieved through interpreting childhood as though it were adulthood! Species have childhoods too (and evolve) . . . not just its individual members. The Genesis stories simply capture our primordial consciousness (understanding) of the beginning of human life and chronicle the universal basic experiences (lessons) of human spiritual development.

It is common knowledge that each and every human being must experience and repeat the entire pattern of human development. Each individual must learn everything for himself with the aid of his parents or society. Thus, the womb existence is a repetition of the evolution into a human being, and the various stages of fetal development mirror that evolution. The fetus even appears to have gills like a fish at one stage. The birth represents the seeding of a soul, the breathing into man's nostrils of the breath of life (Atman, Adamah). Infancy represents Eden, with parents as the all-providing God, and so on through maturity. "As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be."

Humankind as described in Genesis had just been born. He possessed the mere infant of a soul. A suggestion that this infant soul would be punished for its inadequacies is absurd! Naturally, this soul was inadequate to control the animal body it inhabited. In fact, in the more advanced lesson described in the myth of Noah and the flood (where humankind was surely more developed than in Eden) this understanding of youthful ignorance as the source of misbehavior was specifically verbalized, Genesis 8:21,

. . . I will never again curse the ground on account of Man, for the inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth.

Only by interpreting this passage as a problem of our species immaturity does it make any sense. Otherwise the passage would be suggesting that God won't punish man BECAUSE he is evil or some such absurdity!

Clearly, our species infant consciousness wasn't expected to be able to control its body, because it was the mere seed of a soul. A seed bears no fruit. It must germinate into a full-fledged tree bearing the fruit of eternal life. Therein is the explanation of the kingdom of God described by Jesus in the parable of the mustard seed.

Somehow this mere seed of a soul, this minute consciousness, has to become aware of the basic process it must perform to produce eternal life. First this soul had to learn that there was something to achieve. Then it had to be given a rudimentary idea of how to achieve it.

Since the process for achieving our purpose consists of controlling our animal nature and eliminating certain destructive responses, this basic idea of selective satisfaction of our internal desires had to be conveyed to the infant soul. Left on its own in its animal body, it wouldn't have the faintest idea that there was any need to differentiate between good and bad behavior. To an animal, all responses to its inner drives are "good."

Without external teaching and an external referent, this infant soul would have learned this erroneous concept from its animal nature, and continued to react without censure and control. In fact, it would devote itself to perfecting means of satisfying all of its animal drives. It would become a truly superior animal. It would kill more efficiently, hate more efficiently, be greedier, be more vengeful, create orgies and debaucheries to increase sexual satisfaction, and so on. Seem familiar?

A great deal of intellectual effort has been expended in attempts to interpret the significance of the forbidden fruit. All manner of complex inferences have been formulated to explain this "symbolic fruit." There is a proverb dating back to the 14th century which is applicable here: "causae non multiplicandae praeter necessitatem." Essentially, it means don't unnecessarily complicate or if given the choice between explanations use the simplest one. The forbidden fruit is, quite literally, a fruit! The tree is called the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" because from our experience with it we learn that basic distinction.

The forbidden fruit represents our basic lesson in differentiation of behavior and control of our animal body. The expulsion from Eden resulting from forbidden behavior is our base. When we are told that there are certain things we must not do or we will lose eternal life, we can relate back to this experience of losing Eden and understand the basic concept. Thereby our species began the long process of learning the way to achieve eternal life. Genesis 3:22,

. . . the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil! And now perhaps he will put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever!

There are many interpretations of this passage, the most ridiculous version being that God felt man was now a threat who must be cast out of Eden to PREVENT him from getting to the tree of life! The absurdity of the notion that our Creator would fear His own creation is the first, but certainly not the last, tainting of God's motives by man's animal nature. That he could be a threat to his Creator is the greatest salve early interpreters could devise for explaining the concept of rejection and expulsion from Eden. It is a typical answer for a primitive consciousness faced with otherwise incomprehensible actions. Our own children experience similar incomprehension whenever they are being taught their first "unavoidable" basic experiences ("sins" of disobedience).

Every human being sins. Sin is often defined as missing the mark. It is a failure to live up to God's requirements. But that is simplistic. God has requirements because we need to learn to be self-sufficient and avoid negative consequences. All the angst about sin proceeds from the mistaken notion that sins are a violation of God's laws and that there will therefore be a punishment for them emanating from the wrath of God. This is utter nonsense.

Sins are selfish and inconsiderate responses to stimuli that satisfy US . . . but result in harm to others and "stunt" our spiritual growth. They stifle the growth of our spiritual awareness and sensitivity in favor of our carnal enjoyment and satisfaction. (We feed our animal needs and starve our spiritual needs.) This is counter to God's desire for us . . . (since our purpose is to develop a strong enough "spiritual embryo" to be reborn as Spirit at our death) . . . and can result in failure (spiritual miscarriage or abortion). Failure has negative consequences . . . but they are not punishments.

Understanding that our true purpose here is to develop spiritually while satisfying our carnal needs . . . should produce a more enlightened view of our predicament. We would not have carnally pleasurable experiences if they were prohibited or "sinful" in their own right. It is the INDISCRIMINATE pursuit and enjoyment of those pleasures REGARDLESS OF THEIR CONSEQUENCES TO OTHERS . . . that is sinful. As the illustration of Cain reveals . . , sin is the indiscriminate effort of our animal nature to satisfy us ("its desire is for us" . . . i.e., it is on our side) . . . but we must MASTER it and discriminate for it to prevent or avoid the sinful consequences of harm to others.

There is no non-arbitrary rationale for avoiding harm to others if there is no God or purpose to humankind. Therefore the first requirement to avoiding sin is to acknowledge in our heart of hearts (and in our actions toward others) that there is a God (whether we actually acknowledge it cognitively or not). These are the prime "commandments" . . . Love God . . .which justifies the second . . . love each other. Their manifestation in our attitudes and behaviors toward others is the "fruit" by which we know they exist . . . NOT the proclamations and claims of belief that emanate from the mouth.
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Old 07-10-2010, 08:52 PM
 
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He's the bad cop in a good cop/bad cop method of tricking people.
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Old 07-10-2010, 09:06 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Sorry, but I'll go with the Bible on this one. Read on, and you will see there is no way the serpent was Adam.

Eve says "the serpent deceived me". She did not say "Adam deceived me".

13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life. ......

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life. ...."
Finn_Jarber,
There is no need to be sorry. It's the same crowd doing the same thing.....
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