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The numbers are staggering when one looks at the increase of the kingdom since its inception.
I don't numbers anywhere near that in UR...Ur was cast out of the church so long agao, and the only reason why it has reurfaced and gained modest popularity, is because the "systems" in place in society have departed from Biblical teaching. People want a feel good religion, and UR does that for them. It gives them the best of both world, and they can makeup their own rules as they go along the gnostic and stoic doctrines.
This really shows where you are at Sciota , that you would even think about a doctrine issue of ET or UR when people are coming to faithin Jesus. I am just joyful that people are putting their faith in Jesus , even if the vast majority who are coming to faith in Jesus quite possibly believe in ET, it's not an issue , i am not going to damn them to eternal torment just because they believe different to me , which seems to be the favorite past time of many of the preachers of ET on here.
In all my days around christians i have never experienced ET being promoted like it's done on here , i can say without doubt most christians that i have ever been involved with have mostly spoke about Jesus is love and grace to them in their lives and their willingness to share that with others .
(Bolded portion of your post) June "gets" in theory what you are saying, but that is precisely her point: That it is left up to the individual to accept or deny the responsibility of availing oneself to that freedom offered. As such, what becomes of those who do not have that option? That woman on the mountainside in Tibet certainly doesn't, so she's "out of the loop" and destined to an afterlife of sheer misery, simply because she never had the "opportunity" much less the chance of anything otherwise?
That doesn't "jive" with the notion of a universal savior who came to save ALL of humankind...(That's June's point.)
The opening sentences of the article specify: "Indeed, they are sinners who have failed to act responsibly on what God has already revealed to them -- whether through the light of creation (Rom. 1), through the light of conscience (Rom. 2), or through the light of Christ (Rom. 3). If people respond to whatever light they do have, then God will send them the light of the gospel. Because no one has been kept in the dark about God's existence, we're all accountable directly to Him (Luke 12:47-48). "
--It's the "IF" that invalidates that Christ was, in fact, "the Savior." The woman in Tibet can most certainly (and genuinelly) "respond to whatever light" she doeshave, and yet, accordingly, if her "light" and her "conscience" are not in alignment with Christianity, she's stuck. It means that Jesus Christ's offer of salvation was not an "offer" for her.
It's not even a remote possibility, let alone an offer, or "free gift." Nope.
Agreed. (In theory, theologically, mind you!) --However, while June understands what you are saying that salvation is conditional, what she is challenging here is the notion that there exists a discrepancy between the notion of Jesus Christ either have been "the savior" or not! It makes no sense to say that the Son of Man came and offered everlasting life and salvation ONLY IF you happen to live in a culture that acknowledges, let alone has access to that concept or belief system. As such, if you are unfortunate enough to live your whole entire life as a good and altruistic person in Tibet, you are out of luck. No matter WHAT you do.
So anyone who is not privy to ever having the opportunity to 'hear the gospel' and somehow come to believe in it are stuck? How does that bespeak a "Savior?" It doesn't. That's the difficulty June is having here.
--Because what you are basically saying is that the offer of salvation and freedom is exlusionary. -And that Jesus did NOT come to "save" ALL of mankind. Only some: Those who are fortunate enough to be born and raised within a certain "culture" and geographical location. That, to June's way of thinking, does not bespeak a "Savior of all mankind" whereby "all mankind" signifies that it is a universal entity: "All" mankind.
~Yet accordingly, only "some?"
Take gentle care.
The only issue is this. No matter what culture you have been brought up in, no matter how geographically isolated you may be from the rest of the world, God has made Himself known though His creation. That knowledge is only a general knowledge that a supreme being does exist. If when a person, again regardless of culture or geography, reaches a level of mental development that he can conceive of the concept of a supreme being, God will get the Gospel to that person, so that a decision concerning Christ can be made.
God knew in eternity past who would believe in Christ for salvation upon Gospel hearing, and in His divine decree He determined to get the Gospel to those people. That determination works itself out in the workings of history, so that missionary activity is sent into areas where there is positive volition at the point of God consciousness.
The 'if' in man's volition in no way invalidates the fact that Christ is the Savior of all mankind. You have to realize that Christ is the Savior in the sense that He made salvation possible through faith in Him. It in no way implies that all men are automatically saved.
God's offer of salvation in completely inclusive. Christ came to provide salvation for all. He died for the sins of everyone in the history of the human race. That is unlimited atonement. Man's volition is the determining factor in whether any particular person will receive Christ as Savior and therefore be saved. What Christ did on the Cross was for the benefit of all. The barrier between God and man was taken down by Christ. But only those who walk over the line where that barrier was, through faith in Christ, will receive eternal life. Salvation is available to all. But each individual person must reach out and take it. It is not forced on anyone.
I suggest (only if you are truly interested), to listen to the basic doctrine lessons on my other thread. They will answer your questions. But that's up to you.
Nothing can change the fact that if it necessary to understand and believe in Christ in order to avoid this hell,and billions throughout history have not had this choice made available to them through the combination of geography and lack of technology to cross said geography,then billions are going to hell without being presented any other opportunity.
On the other hand,if you claim that they won't go to hell because of this,but will be judged on their merits,then you are saying 2 things.One,that missionaries are unnecessary because all men can be judged by their own merits and,second,you have changed the evangelical dogma that God can't stand the sight of man unless He "looks through the blood of Christ".He wasn't looking through Christ to ancient Peruvian Indians in 150 AD,for example.
There are obvious flaws in the logic of most evangelicals,unless you take the stance of an evangelist in my old church and believe that "that's just their tough luck".
Nothing can change the fact that if it necessary to understand and believe in Christ in order to avoid this hell,and billions throughout history have not had this choice made available to them through the combination of geography and lack of technology to cross said geography,then billions are going to hell without being presented any other opportunity.
On the other hand,if you claim that they won't go to hell because of this,but will be judged on their merits,then you are saying 2 things.One,that missionaries are unnecessary because all men can be judged by their own merits and,second,you have changed the evangelical dogma that God can't stand the sight of man unless He "looks through the blood of Christ".He wasn't looking through Christ to ancient Peruvian Indians in 150 AD,for example.
There are obvious flaws in the logic of most evangelicals,unless you take the stance of an evangelist in my old church and believe that "that's just their tough luck".
If when a person, again regardless of culture or geography, reaches a level of mental development that he can conceive of the concept of a supreme being, God will get the Gospel to that person, so that a decision concerning Christ can be made.
Mike, with all due respect (and June means that!) when that woman in Tibet reaches a level of mental development such that she can readily conceive of a Supreme Being, there is no assurance that "God will get the gospel" to her.
She will reinforce her own conception of God, and become that much more of a better Tibetan Buddhist. And she may live out her entire life according to the morals of her culture, and be the most loving, kind, and altruistic person in Tibet, however.....
(See where June's going here?) What you are telling June does not bear out in reality....
Nothing can change the fact that if it necessary to understand and believe in Christ in order to avoid this hell,and billions throughout history have not had this choice made available to them through the combination of geography and lack of technology to cross said geography,then billions are going to hell without being presented any other opportunity.
On the other hand,if you claim that they won't go to hell because of this,but will be judged on their merits,then you are saying 2 things.One,that missionaries are unnecessary because all men can be judged by their own merits and,second,you have changed the evangelical dogma that God can't stand the sight of man unless He "looks through the blood of Christ".He wasn't looking through Christ to ancient Peruvian Indians in 150 AD,for example.
There are obvious flaws in the logic of most evangelicals,unless you take the stance of an evangelist in my old church and believe that "that's just their tough luck".
Religious objective truth puts man under trial, and God in the judge's seat, but by that same token, it puts man in the boat and God in the lighthouse.
I am talking about what is happening in China and the other countries mentioned , rather than rejoicing in what's happening in these countries you had to drag ET and UR into it , this is why i said it shows where you are at ,because ET or UR is not the message , the message is Calvary and what Jesus accomplished there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
The numbers are staggering when one looks at the increase of the kingdom since its inception.
I don't numbers anywhere near that in UR...Ur was cast out of the church so long agao, and the only reason why it has reurfaced and gained modest popularity, is because the "systems" in place in society have departed from Biblical teaching. People want a feel good religion, and UR does that for them. It gives them the best of both world, and they can makeup their own rules as they go along the gnostic and stoic doctrines.
The feel good religion is i'm saved , the sinners aren't , they deserve their fate.
Religious objective truth puts man under trial, and God in the judge's seat, but by that same token, it puts man in the boat and God in the lighthouse.
The only issue is this. No matter what culture you have been brought up in, no matter how geographically isolated you may be from the rest of the world, God has made Himself known though His creation. That knowledge is only a general knowledge that a supreme being does exist. If when a person, again regardless of culture or geography, reaches a level of mental development that he can conceive of the concept of a supreme being, God will get the Gospel to that person, so that a decision concerning Christ can be made.
God knew in eternity past who would believe in Christ for salvation upon Gospel hearing, and in His divine decree He determined to get the Gospel to those people. That determination works itself out in the workings of history, so that missionary activity is sent into areas where there is positive volition at the point of God consciousness.
The 'if' in man's volition in no way invalidates the fact that Christ is the Savior of all mankind. You have to realize that Christ is the Savior in the sense that He made salvation possible through faith in Him. It in no way implies that all men are automatically saved.
God's offer of salvation in completely inclusive. Christ came to provide salvation for all. He died for the sins of everyone in the history of the human race. That is unlimited atonement. Man's volition is the determining factor in whether any particular person will receive Christ as Savior and therefore be saved. What Christ did on the Cross was for the benefit of all. The barrier between God and man was taken down by Christ. But only those who walk over the line where that barrier was, through faith in Christ, will receive eternal life. Salvation is available to all. But each individual person must reach out and take it. It is not forced on anyone.
I suggest (only if you are truly interested), to listen to the basic doctrine lessons on my other thread. They will answer your questions. But that's up to you.
How do you explain the heathen NA Indians? How did they have that light in the 2nd century? And furthermore... if what the article says is true, then everyone's ancestors would have been reached before they died. right? we know that is not the case...
Is the article saying that other cultures have their own form of worshiping this higher being.
Is the article saying they are saved without Christ but you must have Christ to be saved? How does that make sense? Is this article for or against people going to hell because they never heard?
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--However, while June understands what you are saying that salvation is conditional, what she is challenging here is the notion that there exists a discrepancy between the notion of Jesus Christ either have been "the savior" or not! It makes no sense to say that the Son of Man came and offered everlasting life and salvation ONLY IF you happen to live in a culture that acknowledges, let alone has access to that concept or belief system. As such, if you are unfortunate enough to live your whole entire life as a good and altruistic person in Tibet, you are out of luck. No matter WHAT you do.
