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Old 07-11-2010, 01:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Mike, with all due respect (and June means that!) when that woman in Tibet reaches a level of mental development such that she can readily conceive of a Supreme Being, there is no assurance that "God will get the gospel" to her.

She will reinforce her own conception of God, and become that much more of a better Tibetan Buddhist. And she may live out her entire life according to the morals of her culture, and be the most loving, kind, and altruistic person in Tibet, however.....

(See where June's going here?) What you are telling June does not bear out in reality....
But it is magic, June . . . not reason and the "wisdom of man" that Mike relies on to believe this will happen. Applying reason and the "wisdom of man" is inappropriate to faith matters.

 
Old 07-11-2010, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,432,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I am talking about what is happening in China and the other countries mentioned , rather than rejoicing in what's happening in these countries you had to drag ET and UR into it , this is why i said it shows where you are at ,because ET or UR is not the message , the message is Calvary and what Jesus accomplished there.



The feel good religion is i'm saved , the sinners aren't , they deserve their fate.
And what did Jesus say regarding those who don't believe in Him?

Secondly, in your opinion, since it appears you continue to change your premise in this regard, maybe I am mistaken, what is their fate?
 
Old 07-11-2010, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,432,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
But it is magic, June . . . not reason and the "wisdom of man" that Mike relies on to believe this will happen. Applying reason and the "wisdom of man" is inappropriate to faith matters.
Funny...because that is how UR started...via pagan philosophical reasonings.

http://members.dcn.org/gvcc/sermon_t..._Paganism.html

http://www.apocatastasis.net/OccultL...versalism.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=Wh4...0stoic&f=false

Last edited by sciotamicks; 07-11-2010 at 01:20 PM..
 
Old 07-11-2010, 01:21 PM
 
Location: New England
32,221 posts, read 21,091,303 times
Reputation: 2274
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
And what did Jesus say regarding those who don't believe in Him?

Secondly, in your opinion, since it appears you continue to change your premise in this regard, maybe I am mistaken, what is their fate?
Sciota you are totally missing the point ET is not the good news that those who in these countries are believing in it's "God demonstrated His love towards us while were yet sinenrs" , it's for this reason they are putting their faith in Jesus.

You can scare people into believing through ET, but all you do with this is make them twice the child of hell who is preaching the gospel of fear.

No i have not changed my premise , i am pointing out that the feel good religion is in a "false gospel of i'm saved , sinners aren't , they deserve their fate".
 
Old 07-11-2010, 01:47 PM
 
21,802 posts, read 16,670,340 times
Reputation: 8649
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Mike, with all due respect (and June means that!) when that woman in Tibet reaches a level of mental development such that she can readily conceive of a Supreme Being, there is no assurance that "God will get the gospel" to her.

She will reinforce her own conception of God, and become that much more of a better Tibetan Buddhist. And she may live out her entire life according to the morals of her culture, and be the most loving, kind, and altruistic person in Tibet, however.....

(See where June's going here?) What you are telling June does not bear out in reality....
I may have neglected to include this in my statement. When a person reaches the point of God consciousness, IF they have a desire to know more about God at that point, then God will see to it that they get the Gospel in order to make a decision about Christ. God knows what is in their heart regarding what they believe. They may or may not believe the Gospel when exposed to it, but they will have the opportunity to hear the message.

The majority of the human race will reject Christ as Savior. The majority of the human race doesn't desire to know God. But where ever there is positve volition at the point of God conciousness, God will absolutely get the Gospel to that location.

God is perfectly fair and just. The criteria for salvation is to believe in Christ for salvation, and so God will get the Gospel to those who are positive at the point of God consciousness. Whether they are positive toward the Gospel is another matter.

There will be eternally saved people from all cultures, races, and nations. But the majority will not believe.

There are people who desire to know the truth regardless of the culture they are brought up in, and there are those who just don't care. This is reality. This is the way it is.

To look at it from the opposite viewpoint, here in the U.S. there is excellent disemination of the Gospel, but there are many who reject it. It is not about location, or culture, or anything except individual human volition regarding the revelation of God first in His creation, and then in the Gospel message.

And contrary to what many people believe, because they don't know history, is that the world has been evangelized many times. As the human population expanded and spread out, so too did the Gospel.

From the Bible itself, we can see that the Gospel has been preached throughout the inhabited world.

Acts 17:6 And when they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, ''These men who have upset the world (the inhabited earth) have come here also;

Colossians 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel, [6] which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth,

1 Timothy 3:16 And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness; He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

The historical record shows that the inhabited world was evangelized in the first century. And evangelism has never ceased. There is no geographical location so isolated that God is not aware of it. Wherever there is positive volition, He provides Gospel information.

The Gospel is as old as the fall of man. God Himself evangelized Adam after he fell and the Gospel went out among the world as the population increased. After the flood, Noah and his sons were all believers and the Gospel went out among the increasing world population. The heathen are not heathen because they have never heard, but because they have rejected the truth.

The question, ''What about those who have never heard?'' is a false issue.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 02:27 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,556,771 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Paul refuted your point on several levels.

Since my point is simply that if it is necessary to believe in Christ to be saved,then the billions who lived since Christ in areas that did not know who Christ was will go to hell without having the chance to believe in Christ,due to no missionaries being able to get to them to explain this for thousands of years after Christ,no he didn't.Paul knew nothing about the Americas,Australia,the oceanic islands,etc.There is no proof he knew of millions of Chinese alive even at the time of the Gospel.Therefore,he did not rebut my point.

Your wishing it were so does not in fact make it so.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 02:29 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
4,224 posts, read 650,144 times
Reputation: 449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
John 3:36 says

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

You have to reject Jesus to be condemned. You can't reject something of which you have no knowledge. Those who have never heard the gospel are judged on their own merits IMO.
**************
The article was a bit vague
What I see is there are 2 different things that are tied together 1 is salvation through Christ ----- the other is judgment on works

Salvation is only by grace through faith which is a gift of God

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 02:35 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,556,771 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I may have neglected to include this in my statement. When a person reaches the point of God consciousness, IF they have a desire to know more about God at that point, then God will see to it that they get the Gospel in order to make a decision about Christ. God knows what is in their heart regarding what they believe. They may or may not believe the Gospel when exposed to it, but they will have the opportunity to hear the message.

The majority of the human race will reject Christ as Savior. The majority of the human race doesn't desire to know God. But where ever there is positve volition at the point of God conciousness, God will absolutely get the Gospel to that location.

God is perfectly fair and just. The criteria for salvation is to believe in Christ for salvation, and so God will get the Gospel to those who are positive at the point of God consciousness. Whether they are positive toward the Gospel is another matter.

There will be eternally saved people from all cultures, races, and nations. But the majority will not believe.

There are people who desire to know the truth regardless of the culture they are brought up in, and there are those who just don't care. This is reality. This is the way it is.

To look at it from the opposite viewpoint, here in the U.S. there is excellent disemination of the Gospel, but there are many who reject it. It is not about location, or culture, or anything except individual human volition regarding the revelation of God first in His creation, and then in the Gospel message.

And contrary to what many people believe, because they don't know history, is that the world has been evangelized many times. As the human population expanded and spread out, so too did the Gospel.

From the Bible itself, we can see that the Gospel has been preached throughout the inhabited world.

Acts 17:6 And when they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, ''These men who have upset the world (the inhabited earth) have come here also;

Colossians 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel, [6] which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth,

1 Timothy 3:16 And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness; He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

The historical record shows that the inhabited world was evangelized in the first century. And evangelism has never ceased. There is no geographical location so isolated that God is not aware of it. Wherever there is positive volition, He provides Gospel information.

The Gospel is as old as the fall of man. God Himself evangelized Adam after he fell and the Gospel went out among the world as the population increased. After the flood, Noah and his sons were all believers and the Gospel went out among the increasing world population. The heathen are not heathen because they have never heard, but because they have rejected the truth.

The question, ''What about those who have never heard?'' is a false issue.
The idea that the entire world was and is evangelized is so silly as not to require any real rebuttal.The Americas did not have the Gospel in the thousands of years before Europeans came over.How can anyone claim this in good conscience?

And the idea that God will somehow present the Gospel to all people around the world even if they know nothing of Christ sounds very nice,but has absolutely no support in the Bible or in real life.There is ZERO proof of any Europeans ever discovering peoples who knew about Christ without having been told by missionaries.This is simply something that those who are slightly troubled by the idea of the "heathen" being sent to a hell without having the opportunity to make a decision about Christ come up with to assuage their conscience.If this were truly so then the Christian church would not feel the need to send out missionaries.God could simply do a much better job in a one to one direct communication with the heathen.

Here is what the Bible LITERALLY says about this idea.


Romans 10:14

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
 
Old 07-11-2010, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,432,221 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Sciota you are totally missing the point ET is not the good news that those who in these countries are believing in it's "God demonstrated His love towards us while were yet sinenrs" , it's for this reason they are putting their faith in Jesus.

You can scare people into believing through ET, but all you do with this is make them twice the child of hell who is preaching the gospel of fear.

No i have not changed my premise , i am pointing out that the feel good religion is in a "false gospel of i'm saved , sinners aren't , they deserve their fate".
PC,

They can discern what is right and consistent with the Holy Writ, however, I am on the front lines battling it with UR....ET is the antithesis of UR. UR preaches a second chance after biological death. This is false.

Please remember, that is my first and foremost directive here, since it is laden with UR, and false gospel....I preach.

You are right though....all sinners CAN OBTAIN eternal life, but it is only through their confession of Christ that redeems them from.....the OLD MAN in which they inhabit. Once that is shed, that is the OLD MAN, and the sinner dies a biological death, there is no other chance.

The scriptures ARE VERY CLEAR about this.

Sinners aren't saved until they come to Christ. That is the message.
THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS. The whole purpose of the commision.

To tell them that.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,432,221 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
The idea that the entire world was and is evangelized is so silly as not to require any real rebuttal.The Americas did not have the Gospel in the thousands of years before Europeans came over.How can anyone claim this in good conscience?

And the idea that God will somehow present the Gospel to all people around the world even if they know nothing of Christ sounds very nice,but has absolutely no support in the Bible or in real life.There is ZERO proof of any Europeans ever discovering peoples who knew about Christ without having been told by missionaries.This is simply something that those who are slightly troubled by the idea of the "heathen" being sent to a hell without having the opportunity to make a decision about Christ come up with to assuage their conscience.If this were truly so then the Christian church would not feel the need to send out missionaries.God could simply do a much better job in a one to one direct communication with the heathen.

Here is what the Bible LITERALLY says about this idea.


Romans 10:14

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Romans 10:9,10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Romans 10:11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

Romans 10:13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved

Romans 10:18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

And in Romans 12...Paul urges the Gentiles to do exactly what he has been claiming all along.

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God-this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is-his good, pleasing and perfect will. For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

Romans 13:14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
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