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Old 07-11-2010, 03:01 PM
 
40,177 posts, read 26,806,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
PC,

They can discern what is right and consistent with the Holy Writ, however, I am on the front lines battling it with UR....ET is the antithesis of UR. UR preaches a second chance after biological death. This is false.

Please remember, that is my first and foremost directive here, since it is laden with UR, and false gospel....I preach.

You are right though....all sinners CAN OBTAIN eternal life, but it is only through their confession of Christ that redeems them from.....the OLD MAN in which they inhabit. Once that is shed, that is the OLD MAN, and the sinner dies a biological death, there is no other chance.

The scriptures ARE VERY CLEAR about this.

Sinners aren't saved until they come to Christ. That is the message.
THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS. The whole purpose of the commision.

To tell them that
.
Since it is God who calls them . . . why is this even necessary since belief is NOT a willful act? Try to believe what you do NOT!!! Jesus has already SAVED us ALL and God has already "written in our hearts" and uses the Holy Spirit to CALL each of us to "believe on" Christ and "build on His foundation" by following His example and commandments to "love God and each other." What we produce will be either "hay, wood and stubble or gold, silver etc." that will be tried as by spiritual fire. What we have "built on the foundation" Jesus gave us will survive or not . . . but we will be saved no matter what.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 07-11-2010 at 03:24 PM..

 
Old 07-11-2010, 03:20 PM
 
1,114 posts, read 1,027,507 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
The only time i have heard of prisoners not making a run for it when the prison doors were opened , was Paul and Silas (men of God) in that Phillipian jail.

The Jesus "opened the prison door , it's now up to you to escape to freedom" is a farce.
You are so right!
 
Old 07-11-2010, 03:28 PM
 
21,949 posts, read 16,744,092 times
Reputation: 8759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I may have neglected to include this in my statement. When a person reaches the point of God consciousness, IF they have a desire to know more about God at that point, then God will see to it that they get the Gospel in order to make a decision about Christ. God knows what is in their heart regarding what they believe. They may or may not believe the Gospel when exposed to it, but they will have the opportunity to hear the message.

The majority of the human race will reject Christ as Savior. The majority of the human race doesn't desire to know God. But where ever there is positve volition at the point of God conciousness, God will absolutely get the Gospel to that location.

God is perfectly fair and just. The criteria for salvation is to believe in Christ for salvation, and so God will get the Gospel to those who are positive at the point of God consciousness. Whether they are positive toward the Gospel is another matter.

There will be eternally saved people from all cultures, races, and nations. But the majority will not believe.

There are people who desire to know the truth regardless of the culture they are brought up in, and there are those who just don't care. This is reality. This is the way it is.

To look at it from the opposite viewpoint, here in the U.S. there is excellent disemination of the Gospel, but there are many who reject it. It is not about location, or culture, or anything except individual human volition regarding the revelation of God first in His creation, and then in the Gospel message.

And contrary to what many people believe, because they don't know history, is that the world has been evangelized many times. As the human population expanded and spread out, so too did the Gospel.

From the Bible itself, we can see that the Gospel has been preached throughout the inhabited world.

Acts 17:6 And when they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, ''These men who have upset the world (the inhabited earth) have come here also;

Colossians 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel, [6] which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth,

1 Timothy 3:16 And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness; He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

The historical record shows that the inhabited world was evangelized in the first century. And evangelism has never ceased. There is no geographical location so isolated that God is not aware of it. Wherever there is positive volition, He provides Gospel information.

The Gospel is as old as the fall of man. God Himself evangelized Adam after he fell and the Gospel went out among the world as the population increased. After the flood, Noah and his sons were all believers and the Gospel went out among the increasing world population. The heathen are not heathen because they have never heard, but because they have rejected the truth.

The question, ''What about those who have never heard?'' is a false issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
The idea that the entire world was and is evangelized is so silly as not to require any real rebuttal.The Americas did not have the Gospel in the thousands of years before Europeans came over.How can anyone claim this in good conscience?

And the idea that God will somehow present the Gospel to all people around the world even if they know nothing of Christ sounds very nice,but has absolutely no support in the Bible or in real life.There is ZERO proof of any Europeans ever discovering peoples who knew about Christ without having been told by missionaries.This is simply something that those who are slightly troubled by the idea of the "heathen" being sent to a hell without having the opportunity to make a decision about Christ come up with to assuage their conscience.If this were truly so then the Christian church would not feel the need to send out missionaries.God could simply do a much better job in a one to one direct communication with the heathen.

Here is what the Bible LITERALLY says about this idea.


Romans 10:14

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
People, read what I wrote with comprehension.

As for the above posters reference to Romans 10:14, read the entire passage. Romans 10:14-20.

Here is what verse 18 says...'But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have: ''THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH. AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.'' That is a reference to the fact that God has made Himself known to all through His creation. (Psalms 19).

History shows that the inhabited world has been evangelized. Where a people(s) have turned their back on the truth and gone into idol worship, demon worship, the truth concerning God is forgotten. That does not mean that their ancestors never knew the truth. And if in the midst of that decadent people, there is but one in some particular generation who desires the truth concerning God, then God will get the Gospel to that person. And the beginning of missionary activity can ensue.

As for the peoples of the Americas, they came over from the old world. Their ancestors at some point had been evangelized. In time, as they turned away from God and began to worship idols, they lost their knowledge about the true God. In due course of time, God brought the Spanish explorers and European settlers over and evangelization began.

It is entirely possible for entire generations of people in some area of the world to have no desire to know the true God. But when positive volition appears, God will get the Gospel to that people in that generation.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 03:41 PM
 
1,114 posts, read 1,027,507 times
Reputation: 453
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"
Jesus died for the "believers". And who exactly are the believers? Those whom god has chosen to grant belief/understanding to.
Acts 13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life, believed.

Galatians 3:22 But the Scriptures imprisoned all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Philippians 1:29 Because it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer on his behalf

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
God grants belief to whoever he wants based on his own purposes and mercy. The above verse shows that for those who do not believe, it is because (due to the fact that) we are not of god's sheep. It doesn't say that we are not of god's sheep because we do not believe. Quite the opposite.
Romans 9:11 For being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls,

Rom. 8:30, "and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Hebrews 9:15 (New International Version)
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 03:57 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,184,221 times
Reputation: 1308
Romans 3:19
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Whether you're standing in the middle of New York or in some remote mountain top village in Tibet...."men are without excuse"

Why you might ask...."men are without excuse"

Because:
  1. God says:
    • Romans 10:18
      But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."
  2. God is not accountable to humanity.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,440,999 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Since it is God who calls them . . . why is this even necessary since belief is NOT a willful act?
Believing and faith...are you mixing these two themes up...it appears.

Quote:
Try to believe what you do NOT!!!
Man is already in defiance of God.

Quote:
Jesus has already SAVED us ALL and God has already "written in our hearts" and uses the Holy Spirit to CALL each of us to "believe on" Christ and "build on His foundation" by following His example and commandments to "love God and each other."
Mystic...this law you proclaim to be written on our hearts...why is it that you ascribe it to the whole human race? It is clear this Abrahamic covenant, CONFIRMED by Christ, is still the same covenant that Israel was built upon...Jacob, and his seed...His people....Israel,...Jew and Gentile. If it was for the whole world....why select Israel from the nations of the world? Sounds a little presumptuous IMO.

Quote:
What we produce will be either "hay, wood and stubble or gold, silver etc." that will be tried as by spiritual fire. What we have "built on the foundation" Jesus gave us will survive or not . . . but we will be saved no matter what.
Aha! You confrimed it....UR is a judgement of works......my goodness.

And that dear Mystic, is completely contradictory to the message of reconciliation in Christ.
The Judgement of Works WAS SOLELY directed at Israel, under the Law.
Remeber the queen of the south?

She will/has judged the Tribes of Israel...namely...the Apostate Priests.

The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 04:28 PM
 
40,177 posts, read 26,806,349 times
Reputation: 6057
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Since it is God who calls them . . . why is this even necessary since belief is NOT a willful act?

Believing and faith...are you mixing these two themes up...it appears.
Non-answer . . . non-responsive. Why is it necessary?
Quote:
Quote:
Try to believe what you do NOT!!!
Man is already in defiance of God.
Non-answer . . . non-responsive . . . Can you believe what you do not by force of WILL?
Quote:
Quote:
Jesus has already SAVED us ALL and God has already "written in our hearts" and uses the Holy Spirit to CALL each of us to "believe on" Christ and "build on His foundation" by following His example and commandments to "love God and each other."
Mystic...this law you proclaim to be written on our hearts...why is it that you ascribe it to the whole human race? It is clear this Abrahamic covenant, CONFIRMED by Christ, is still the same covenant that Israel was built upon...Jacob, and his seed...His people....Israel,...Jew and Gentile. If it was for the whole world....why select Israel from the nations of the world? Sounds a little presumptuous IMO.
He had to start somewhere. Abraham displayed the kind of self-control that was necessary to build on. What is presumptuous is the absurd idea that the one and only Almighty God of the entire universe and all that is in it would be so PETTY as to select a small minority of His creations to bestow His FAVORITISM on IF they would only "brown nose" Him sufficiently!!!
Quote:
Quote:
What we produce will be either "hay, wood and stubble or gold, silver etc." that will be tried as by spiritual fire. What we have "built on the foundation" Jesus gave us will survive or not . . . but we will be saved no matter what.
Aha! You confrimed it....UR is a judgement of works......my goodness.
And that dear Mystic, is completely contradictory to the message of reconciliation in Christ.
The Judgement of Works WAS SOLELY directed at Israel, under the Law.
Utter nonsense. I confirmed no such thing. Salvation has NOTHING to do with "works" OR US (in any way shape or form . . . including your requirement that we accept it) . . . but our "fitness" to be in the presence of God DOES.

The scriptures are for instruction for ALL of God's creations for ALL time . . . not your exclusivist or specialized groups that enable your twisted doctrine to support such heinous beliefs about our loving God.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 04:36 PM
 
21,949 posts, read 16,744,092 times
Reputation: 8759
Quote:
Originally Posted by mythunderstood View Post
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"
Jesus died for the "believers". And who exactly are the believers? Those whom god has chosen to grant belief/understanding to.
Acts 13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life, believed.

Galatians 3:22 But the Scriptures imprisoned all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Philippians 1:29 Because it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer on his behalf

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
God grants belief to whoever he wants based on his own purposes and mercy. The above verse shows that for those who do not believe, it is because (due to the fact that) we are not of god's sheep. It doesn't say that we are not of god's sheep because we do not believe. Quite the opposite.
Romans 9:11 For being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls,

Rom. 8:30, "and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Hebrews 9:15 (New International Version)
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Calvinism is Moderator cut: deleted God desires that all men be saved (1 Tim 2:4). He therefore does not choose to save some and leave others in condemnation. It is man's negitive volition that causes him to reject Christ and therefore go to hell.

John 3:16 states plainly that Christ died for everyone. Not just for those who will believe.

Jesus puts the responsibility on man to believe. John 8:24

Last edited by Mike555; 07-11-2010 at 05:29 PM.. Reason: Denominational bashing not tolerated.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 04:43 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,184,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Calvinism is a heresy. God desires that all men be saved (1 Tim 2:4). He therefore does not choose to save some and leave others in condemnation. It is man's negitive volition that causes him to reject Christ and therefore go to hell.

John 3:16 states plainly that Christ died for everyone. Not just for those who will believe.

Jesus puts the responsiblitiy on man to believe. John 8:24
objective justification ... Jesus died for world
subjective justification. ... that whoever believes will not perish
 
Old 07-11-2010, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,683,107 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
objective justification ... Jesus died for world
subjective justification. ... that whoever believes will not perish
So what kind of justification do all men receive here:
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. (Romans 5:18)

Or was Paul confused about what kind of justification all men receive?
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