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Old 07-11-2010, 06:43 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,562,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Romans 10:9,10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Romans 10:11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

Romans 10:13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved

Romans 10:18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

And in Romans 12...Paul urges the Gentiles to do exactly what he has been claiming all along.

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God-this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is-his good, pleasing and perfect will. For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

Romans 13:14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
Interesting that you choose to stop a multi verse quote where you did.Here is the very next verse,verse 19-21

Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.

And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.

But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."


So we see that Paul is not talking about the world at large,but rather the known world of the Jews.The idea that North and South America was evangelized in 100 AD is preposterous.Anyone using common sense knows this is not true.Taking verses written about the limited world the Jews knew and trying to make them read that the Americas,Australia,etc,that were not even known by the Jews of the 1st century were evangelized at this time is disingenous at best.These places were NOT evangelized,and there is nothing at all but wildly misinterpreted and out of context verses to even slightly suggest this silliness.But,this attempt shows that even you are troubled by the idea of people who never heard of Christ being punished for not believing in Him.Otherwise,there would be no need to try and make it look like they were somehow magically evangelized.

Yet,apparently,they will go to hell even though they had no idea they were supposed to believe in Christ.

 
Old 07-11-2010, 06:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

As for the peoples of the Americas, they came over from the old world. Their ancestors at some point had been evangelized. In time, as they turned away from God and began to worship idols, they lost their knowledge about the true God. In due course of time, God brought the Spanish explorers and European settlers over and evangelization began.

They came over BEFORE Christ.Therefore,they never heard of Christ.It really isn't that hard to figure out.How do people who came over millenia BEFORE Christ know about someone on another continent across an ocean?Answer:they don't.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 07:02 PM
 
22,009 posts, read 16,770,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
They came over BEFORE Christ.Therefore,they never heard of Christ.It really isn't that hard to figure out.How do people who came over millenia BEFORE Christ know about someone on another continent across an ocean?Answer:they don't.
The Gospel is as old as the fall of man in the garden. As I already said earlier, the Gospel began to spread after the flood. All of Noahs sons were believers in the coming Messiah. Salvation has always been through faith in the Messiah. We know the Messiah as Jesus Christ. Before His incarnation, by whatever name He was known, He was the Messiah who was to come and bear the sins of the world. By placing their faith in Him, they were saved. The people who came over from the old world and became known as native Americians, or Indians, had ancestors who at some point in the past been exposed to the Gospel. As time went on, whatever knowledge that these people had of God became corrupted through idol or demon worship. It is not that they never heard, it is that they turned away from God and became involved in pagan beliefs and forgot about the true God.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 08:07 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,562,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Gospel is as old as the fall of man in the garden. As I already said earlier, the Gospel began to spread after the flood. All of Noahs sons were believers in the coming Messiah. Salvation has always been through faith in the Messiah. We know the Messiah as Jesus Christ. Before His incarnation, by whatever name He was known, He was the Messiah who was to come and bear the sins of the world. By placing their faith in Him, they were saved. The people who came over from the old world and became known as native Americians, or Indians, had ancestors who at some point in the past been exposed to the Gospel. As time went on, whatever knowledge that these people had of God became corrupted through idol or demon worship. It is not that they never heard, it is that they turned away from God and became involved in pagan beliefs and forgot about the true God.

Does not matter one bit IF the deciding factor immediately after the crucifixion was believing in Christ.What you are saying is that faith in God is all that is required.By that standard Jews and Muslims today do not need to believe in Christ,because they believe in the God of the Bible.

In addition,what would be the difference between the Great Spirit of the Indians and your version of the God they SHOULD be believing in?Names mean nothing.

And you claim of ancient Americans turning away is simply not supportable.People are not punished for what there ancestors thousands of years before them did.What matters is what knowledge THEY have.And THEY had NONE at the time of Christ.

It amazes me what lengths of invention people will go to to try and condemn innocent peoples.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 08:15 PM
 
40,228 posts, read 26,840,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
It amazes me what lengths of invention people will go to to try and condemn innocent peoples.
It isn't so much to condemn innocents even though they do . . . it is to underscore their "SPECIALNESS."
 
Old 07-11-2010, 08:42 PM
 
22,009 posts, read 16,770,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
Does not matter one bit IF the deciding factor immediately after the crucifixion was believing in Christ.What you are saying is that faith in God is all that is required.By that standard Jews and Muslims today do not need to believe in Christ,because they believe in the God of the Bible.
I in no way said that. I said that faith specifically in the Messiah, who is the second Person of the Trinity, is necessary for salvation. That is true in all dispensations of human history. Jesus Christ is the second Person of the Trinity.


Quote:
In addition,what would be the difference between the Great Spirit of the Indians and your version of the God they SHOULD be believing in?Names mean nothing.
The true God is the God of the Bible. There is no other.


Quote:
And you claim of ancient Americans turning away is simply not supportable.People are not punished for what there ancestors thousands of years before them did.What matters is what knowledge THEY have.And THEY had NONE at the time of Christ.

It amazes me what lengths of invention people will go to to try and condemn innocent peoples.
The fact that over time the American Indians turned away from God in no way relates to them being punished for what their ancestors did thousands of years before them. Each person, and each generation who turns from God, each nation that forgets about God, is punished for what they themselves have done. No one who turns away from God is innocent. In due course of time, God took the land from the American Indian because of their false Gods and gave the land to the English settlers.

Whether you want to believe it or not, the Gospel has been preached throughout the inhabited world in times past. And I gave the Scripture which proves it. Further, any serious study of history related to the subject will reveal the validity of that fact.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 08:50 PM
 
5,810 posts, read 4,800,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The fact that over time the American Indians turned away from God in no way relates to them being punished for what their ancestors did thousands of years before them. Each person, and each generation who turns from God, each nation that forgets about God, is punished for what they themselves have done. No one who turns away from God is innocent. In due course of time, God took the land from the American Indian because of their false Gods and gave the land to the English settlers.

OH MY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I have no words.


Hopefully, I can come back here and respond when speech returns to me.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,497,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
OH MY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I have no words.


Hopefully, I can come back here and respond when speech returns to me.
I'll second that. I was thinking about hopping into this thread, but........maybe not. I already have high blood pressure. I don't need a stroke.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 09:58 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,562,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I in no way said that. I said that faith specifically in the Messiah, who is the second Person of the Trinity, is necessary for salvation. That is true in all dispensations of human history. Jesus Christ is the second Person of the Trinity.
Then we are back to where we started.Most people around the world from the crucifixion on,until technology enabled Christians to begin mass evangelism around the world ,will go to hell without ever having had a chance to hear and decide about Christ.The Bible clearly states that they had no way of knowing unless evangelists were sent out to them.And to believe that Christian evangelists made it to the Americas and Australia in 100 AD is pure unadulterated fantasy conjured up as an excuse for explaining why they will supposedly be in hell without excuse.







Quote:
Whether you want to believe it or not, the Gospel has been preached throughout the inhabited world in times past. And I gave the Scripture which proves it. Further, any serious study of history related to the subject will reveal the validity of that fact.
Sorry,but you have given nothing of the sort.The Bible is clear that missionaries are needed to spread the Gospel.Your version of events is pure fantasy.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 11:03 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,191,801 times
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Quote:
objective justification ... Jesus died for world
subjective justification. ... that whoever believes will not perish
Quote:
So what kind of justification do all men receive here:
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. (Romans 5:18)

Or was Paul confused about what kind of justification all men receive?
Paul wasn't confused.

Jesus' one act of righteousness is a fact whether you believe it or not. It is the subjective justification that determines your eternity.

Subjective justification:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." John 3:36
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