U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 07-10-2010, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,435,725 times
Reputation: 420

Advertisements

By Hank Hannegraaf - The Bible Answer Man

Men and women are not sentenced to hell based upon whether or not they have heard of Jesus Christ. Rather, they are justly and fittingly condemned based upon the fact that they are sinners. Indeed, they are sinners who have failed to act responsibly on what God has already revealed to them -- whether through the light of creation (Rom. 1), through the light of conscience (Rom. 2), or through the light of Christ (Rom. 3). If people respond to whatever light they do have, then God will send them the light of the gospel. Because no one has been kept in the dark about God's existence, we're all accountable directly to Him (Luke 12:47-48).

Continued at Link. What Happens to Those Who Have Never Heard ofJesus Christ? - Christian foundations - Christianity.com

Original Material below

Paul stated that none are without excuse. The Psalms state that throughout all of creation, God is evident everywhere. The purpose of the Gospel is to not only spread the news about their salvation, but to remedy the nature that we inhertied from Adam, that we can obtain that salvation, through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 
Old 07-11-2010, 03:03 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,289,854 times
Reputation: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
By Hank Hannegraaf - The Bible Answer Man

Men and women are not sentenced to hell based upon whether or not they have heard of Jesus Christ. Rather, they are justly and fittingly condemned based upon the fact that they are sinners. Indeed, they are sinners who have failed to act responsibly on what God has already revealed to them -- whether through the light of creation (Rom. 1), through the light of conscience (Rom. 2), or through the light of Christ (Rom. 3). If people respond to whatever light they do have, then God will send them the light of the gospel. Because no one has been kept in the dark about God's existence, we're all accountable directly to Him (Luke 12:47-48).

Continued at Link. What Happens to Those Who Have Never Heard ofJesus Christ? - Christian foundations - Christianity.com

Original Material below

Paul stated that none are without excuse. The Psalms state that throughout all of creation, God is evident everywhere. The purpose of the Gospel is to not only spread the news about their salvation, but to remedy the nature that we inhertied from Adam, that we can obtain that salvation, through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Extortion!

Blessings,
brian
 
Old 07-11-2010, 03:07 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,673,360 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
By Hank Hannegraaf - The Bible Answer Man

Men and women are not sentenced to hell based upon whether or not they have heard of Jesus Christ. Rather, they are justly and fittingly condemned based upon the fact that they are sinners. Indeed, they are sinners who have failed to act responsibly on what God has already revealed to them -- whether through the light of creation (Rom. 1), through the light of conscience (Rom. 2), or through the light of Christ (Rom. 3). If people respond to whatever light they do have, then God will send them the light of the gospel. Because no one has been kept in the dark about God's existence, we're all accountable directly to Him (Luke 12:47-48).

Continued at Link. What Happens to Those Who Have Never Heard ofJesus Christ? - Christian foundations - Christianity.com

Original Material below

Paul stated that none are without excuse. The Psalms state that throughout all of creation, God is evident everywhere. The purpose of the Gospel is to not only spread the news about their salvation, but to remedy the nature that we inhertied from Adam, that we can obtain that salvation, through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Just from the quoted paragraph of the link I can see I don't want to read the rest.

If sinners are condemned already and then they are still condemned as sinners... what did Jesus do for sinners again?

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. (1 Tim. 1:15)

So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of 'Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;
(Rom. 5:18 YLT)
I just love the way the YLT renders that verse.

What is Paul saying though? Through one offense (Adam) came condemnation ALSO through Christ came justification of life. The ONE declaration of "Righteous"... isn't that contradictory to what is written in that excerpt above?

Quote:
"Rather, they are justly and fittingly condemned based upon the fact that they are sinners. Indeed, they are sinners who have failed to act responsibly on what God has already revealed to them."
So the condemnation that came by that one man leads to them being condemned AGAIN for what they cannot change? But Paul says that ALL MEN are condemned and all men are justified to life.

Isn't that going against scripture entirely?
 
Old 07-11-2010, 05:43 AM
 
159 posts, read 150,121 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Paul stated that none are without excuse. The Psalms state that throughout all of creation, God is evident everywhere. The purpose of the Gospel is to not only spread the news about their salvation, but to remedy the nature that we inhertied from Adam, that we can obtain that salvation, through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Okay, so you are saying that salvation is possible without Christ if you believe in God because you see him all over the place in creation?

Last edited by python87; 07-11-2010 at 05:53 AM..
 
Old 07-11-2010, 05:57 AM
 
Location: New England
32,228 posts, read 21,115,456 times
Reputation: 2280
Quote:
Originally Posted by python87 View Post
Okay, so you say that salvation is possible without Christ if you believe in God because you see him all over the place in creation?
That was the same thought i had , why do we even need Jesus and all that He accomplished at Calvary if salvation can be obtained through the light given to our conscience ?

This is an insult to the good news and a vain attempt to condemn those
who have never heard the gospel in this life .


I wonder if these guys would have been condemned under the law of the orthodox church if they had not bumped into Paul and Apollos.



1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit whena you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized intob the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tonguesc and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

Acts 19
 
Old 07-11-2010, 07:54 AM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,315 posts, read 1,572,857 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by python87 View Post
Okay, so you are saying that salvation is possible without Christ if you believe in God because you see him all over the place in creation?
That is not what he is saying.

Quote:
By Hank Hannegraaf - The Bible Answer Man

Men and women are not sentenced to hell based upon whether or not they have heard of Jesus Christ. Rather, they are justly and fittingly condemned based upon the fact that they are sinners. Indeed, they are sinners who have failed to act responsibly on what God has already revealed to them -- whether through the light of creation (Rom. 1), through the light of conscience (Rom. 2), or through the light of Christ (Rom. 3). If people respond to whatever light they do have, then God will send them the light of the gospel. Because no one has been kept in the dark about God's existence, we're all accountable directly to Him (Luke 12:47-48).
 
Old 07-11-2010, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
8,401 posts, read 9,148,021 times
Reputation: 13037
John 3:36 says

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

You have to reject Jesus to be condemned. You can't reject something of which you have no knowledge. Those who have never heard the gospel are judged on their own merits IMO.
**************
The article was a bit vague
 
Old 07-11-2010, 08:02 AM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,315 posts, read 1,572,857 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
That was the same thought i had , why do we even need Jesus and all that He accomplished at Calvary if salvation can be obtained through the light given to our conscience ?

This is an insult to the good news and a vain attempt to condemn those
who have never heard the gospel in this life .

I wonder if these guys would have been condemned under the law of the orthodox church if they had not bumped into Paul and Apollos.

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit whena you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized intob the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tonguesc and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

Acts 19
John the Baptist had a following and thus disciples. It is an assumption to believe that everyone that was baptized by John would be sticking around still so not everyone that was baptized by John was there when Jesus came to know that Jesus was the One John was talking about.

That was why Paul had asked them of what baptism they were under of these "certain" disciples. They were of John's. That told Paul that they did not know about Jesus for if they had, they would have been baptized in the name of Jesus.

John 4:When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

So after His resurrection and after the Day of Pentecost, Paul came across these certain disciples in his travels and discovered that they were disciples of John the Baptist's: and that they had not made the connection that this Jesus that was crucified was the One John the Baptist was preparing the way for. Paul told them and then they were baptized in the name of Jesus by Whom they have received the promise of the Spirit by faith.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 08:14 AM
 
Location: New England
32,228 posts, read 21,115,456 times
Reputation: 2280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
John the Baptist had a following and thus disciples. It is an assumption to believe that everyone that was baptized by John would be sticking around still so not everyone that was baptized by John was there when Jesus came to know that Jesus was the One John was talking about.

That was why Paul had asked them of what baptism they were under of these "certain" disciples. They were of John's. That told Paul that they did not know about Jesus for if they had, they would have been baptized in the name of Jesus.

John 4:When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

So after His resurrection and after the Day of Pentecost, Paul came across these certain disciples in his travels and discovered that they were disciples of John the Baptist's: and that they had not made the connection that this Jesus that was crucified was the One John the Baptist was preparing the way for. Paul told them and then they were baptized in the name of Jesus by Whom they have received the promise of the Spirit by faith.
Not disputing that at all , what about the disciples of John who left and never heard the gospel , this is my point , are they saved by John's baptism ? or by the light given to their conscience ?
 
Old 07-11-2010, 08:16 AM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,315 posts, read 1,572,857 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
John 3:36 says

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

You have to reject Jesus to be condemned. You can't reject something of which you have no knowledge. Those who have never heard the gospel are judged on their own merits IMO.
**************
The article was a bit vague
God knows those that are seeking Him from those that are not.

Matthew 7:6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Evidence of God leading the disciples away from those not seeking Him to those that are can be found here:

Acts 16: 6Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

It is because of this promise:

Matthew 7:7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

So we can see how God is working in drawing which men unto the Son.

John 3: 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 6: 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So the following quote has no basis to stand.

Quote:
Those who have never heard the gospel are judged on their own merits IMO.
Because the merits by which they shall be judged has been given.

Romans 3: 9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17And the way of peace have they not known: 18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Not everyone wants to be free from their sins.

Romans 6:22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So God as God knows who wants to be saved as He will provide the gospel to them to draw them unto the Son. No one will say to God on Judgment day, "if only You had given me the Gospel, I would have believed" because it will not be a valid excuse. He knows whom would receive Him from those that will not as evident that not all who hears the Gospel believes.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top