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Old 07-11-2010, 04:17 PM
 
21,964 posts, read 16,750,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post
Mike555, your whole premise is flawed. Man can only believe in Christ when God the Father makes him ready. God is the author and finisher of our faith, lest any man boast. This one important point just won't sink in for you. But God will let it one day.
To the contrary. First of all Hebrews 12:2 says that Jesus is the author and perfecter of 'the' faith. Not 'our' faith. It is a reference to doctrine. Not to a persons personal faith.

God calls man through the Gospel (2 Thess 2:14). Prior to that, man already knows in his heart that God exists, as is made clear in Romans 1:18-21 and 10:14-20. When the Gospel call is made, it is up to the hearer of the Gospel to receive Christ or to reject Him.

As God has already made Himself known through His creation, it is up to each individual to turn to God. Because of pride and other reasons, many will not turn to God. But where there is positive volition toward God at the point of God consciousness, God will get the Gospel to that person, so that he can make a decision about Christ.

 
Old 07-11-2010, 04:28 PM
 
1,114 posts, read 1,027,684 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. First of all Hebrews 12:2 says that Jesus is the author and perfecter of 'the' faith. Not 'our' faith. It is a reference to doctrine. Not to a persons personal faith.

God calls man through the Gospel (2 Thess 2:14). Prior to that, man already knows in his heart that God exists, as is made clear in Romans 1:18-21 and 10:14-20. When the Gospel call is made, it is up to the hearer of the Gospel to receive Christ or to reject Him.

As God has already made Himself known through His creation, it is up to each individual to turn to God. Because of pride and other reasons, many will not turn to God. But where there is positive volition toward God at the point of God consciousness, God will get the Gospel to that person, so that he can make a decision about Christ.


Jesus says, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws Him.” That “everyone” who believes in the Son receives eternal life does not mean that everyone and anyone can come. That is, those who the Father does not draw, the ones He does not give to the Son, do not and cannot come to Him. Here Jesus is speaking of inability; no one is able (Gk. ouvdei.j du,natai, oudeis dynatai) to come unless they are drawn. It may also be stated this way, “if one is not drawn by the Father, he is unable to come to Me.” In 44b Jesus repeats the thought, “And I will raise him up on the last day.” If one is not drawn by the Father, he cannot come to Jesus, but as for the one the Father draws, he will come and will be raised up on the last day.

Later in verse 65, this is again reiterated when Jesus explains to His disciples, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” In this verse the thought of verse 37a and that of verse 44a are brought together. As in verse 44 Jesus says “no one is able to come” so also in verse 65. However, in verse 65 Jesus, rather than repeating, “unless the Father...draws him,” He says, “unless it is granted him.” The word “granted” in the English is the same Greek (di,dwmi,didomi) word Jesus uses in verse 37. No one is able to come to the Son unless he is drawn (helkyso, v. 44) and given (didomi, vv. 37, 65) by the Father.

In other words, those who are drawn (v. 44) are one and the same group as those given or granted (vv. 37, 65). This also means that when Jesus says that it is the Father's will that “everyone who looks...and believes in him should have eternal life” He still has “All that the Father gives” in view. Everyone and anyone who comes to Christ will receive eternal life and be raised on the last day, but the only ones who can and do come are those whom the Father has given to Jesus; these are the ones the Father draws and the ones that He grants to believe.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 08:37 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,993,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi everyone,
With blessings of love to all (and I don't require anything from you back, either..!), I have a hypothetic situation to discuss "for fun":

A man ties you down, and tells you that you must love him and obey him, otherwise he will torture you with a hot iron.

What would you do? Would you love him? COULD you love him?

If you tell him you love him, are you being sincere? How can it be sincere, if love must be free and spontaneous, not forced?

Food for thought..

Blessings to all,
brian
Though your hypothetical question has caused some extreme reactions from those with a different viewpoint, to the point of attacking the messenger shows you have hit a nerve.

But if one is even vaguely familiar with the Stockholm Syndrome, then your question is possible, and even probable, for all situations where the threat, real or perceived, of torture is in play. The Stockholm Syndrome is real, and also plays out in religions that hold the minds of followers hostage, fear being the emotion that easily controls the mind.
Stockholm syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Old 07-12-2010, 03:55 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,296,721 times
Reputation: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
Though your hypothetical question has caused some extreme reactions from those with a different viewpoint, to the point of attacking the messenger shows you have hit a nerve.

But if one is even vaguely familiar with the Stockholm Syndrome, then your question is possible, and even probable, for all situations where the threat, real or perceived, of torture is in play. The Stockholm Syndrome is real, and also plays out in religions that hold the minds of followers hostage, fear being the emotion that easily controls the mind.
Stockholm syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Very interesting reading; thanks, Asheville Native!
I found this government doc through the link you provided:
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2007/july2007/july2007leb.htm#page10 (broken link)

If we believe our God is threatening us with eternal torment, then we can "convince" ourselves that He is "good" and "just," as a way to deal with the difficult situation.

I believe it may be true, that many people are rejecting the message of the Gospel simply because the message has been changed into one of threatenings of punishment in order to obtain obedience.

"Perfect Love casts out fear, because fear hath torment." Fear is part of the flesh/devil. It is part of the Adamic nature which must be subdued by the Christ within.

Blessings to all,
brian
 
Old 07-12-2010, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,296,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
The problem with your assessment or standard of judgment is that it can also be applied to you or to anyone in regards to finding what you want to be truth in the Bible.

But scriptures cannot contradict scriptures in meaning nor in application. It is the failure on the part of the reader in asking God for wisdom in understanding His words for there can be no lie of the truth.

If there is no contradiction in the scripture, and you say that God is love, how is it that He is threatening people with eternal torment if they don't do as He says? This is a contradiction, whether your doctrine can accept it or not.

One cannot ignore other parts of scriptures that speaks clearly against their teaching just because they want to use a certain portion of scripture to support a teaching, thus not using the Bible or the Word of God as a whole in understanding His word.

I do not ignore scripture. I only speak about the scriptures I have received an understanding on through the Father.


Since it is on God to cause the increase, then no believer should be labelling any believer as a "stupid sheep".

Agreed.
I think that if we are preaching "truth," then we shouldn't be afraid to face the truth, either.

Blessings,
brian
 
Old 07-12-2010, 02:11 PM
 
40,187 posts, read 26,814,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post
So many excellent posts supporting UR but Mike, Scio, etc usually dance around the question or just ignore them. Minds already made up NO MATTER WHAT.

Just read this today and thought of many here, esp. in the ET camp.

How facts backfire - The Boston Globe



I guess it will take nothing short of an act of God to budge them away from this devilish teaching.

Each in his/her own time.
I have desperately sought to understand this phenomenon psychologically for decades . . . to no avail. I had concluded the same thing long ago.
 
Old 07-12-2010, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,270,373 times
Reputation: 808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
The problem with your assessment or standard of judgment is that it can also be applied to you or to anyone in regards to finding what you want to be truth in the Bible.

But scriptures cannot contradict scriptures in meaning nor in application. It is the failure on the part of the reader in asking God for wisdom in understanding His words for there can be no lie of the truth.

One cannot ignore other parts of scriptures that speaks clearly against their teaching just because they want to use a certain portion of scripture to support a teaching, thus not using the Bible or the Word of God as a whole in understanding His word.

Since it is on God to cause the increase, then no believer should be labelling any believer as a "stupid sheep".
I hate to burst your bubble...but this statement is patently false and you know it is...the evidence for this is made blatantly obvious all throughout the different teachings/different denominations in Christianity and the bible is loaded with contradictions. If biblical teaching were as clear cut and obvious as you purport, there wouldn't be any divisiveness amongst yourselves.
 
Old 07-12-2010, 02:40 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,773,769 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
But where there is positive volition toward God at the point of God consciousness, God will get the Gospel to that person, so that he can make a decision about Christ.
You keep saying that, but it's not in the bible and you should know that.
 
Old 07-12-2010, 03:00 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,773,769 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi everyone,
With blessings of love to all (and I don't require anything from you back, either..!), I have a hypothetic situation to discuss "for fun":

A man ties you down, and tells you that you must love him and obey him, otherwise he will torture you with a hot iron.

What would you do? Would you love him? COULD you love him?

If you tell him you love him, are you being sincere? How can it be sincere, if love must be free and spontaneous, not forced?

Food for thought..

Blessings to all,
brian
Another hypothetical that might fit a lot of Christians is this: You are a little child with a loving daddy. You are told by everyone around you that he is good and kind. When you get just a little older, you are told that he does indeed love you very, very much, but he's going to set the neighbor's child on fire because he didn't believe all the people who told him that he was a good and kind man. Do you still love your daddy?

Most Christians were told, "Jesus loves the little children of the world," when they were little, but later were told he would torture most of them. God's love had already been accepted into their heart before they even knew about the bad news, so the love remained while the denial of this split personality God helped them cope.

I know in my case, I tried not to think about ET, but when I finally faced it head-on, I asked God myself why it had to be that way and why Jesus' sacrifice couldn't save everyone, and to my surprise He began to reveal to me that it does!
 
Old 07-12-2010, 06:15 PM
 
21,964 posts, read 16,750,349 times
Reputation: 8762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
You keep saying that, but it's not in the bible and you should know that.
Sounds like an attempt to deny the importance and necessity of the Gospel.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Because God is perfectly just and fair, He will get the Gospel message to all who have positive volition at the point of God consciousness, so that they can make a decision about Christ. It doesn't have to have a sentence to that effect (with those exact words) in the Bible for it to be true.

Jesus gave the great commission in Matt 28:19 ''Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations , baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

And the Gospel spread throughout the inhabited world.

Acts 17:6 And when they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, ''These men who have upset the world (the inhabited earth) have come here also;

Colossians 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel, [6] which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth,

1 Timothy 3:16 And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness; He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

In Old Testament times, the Gospel which is as old as the fall of man in the garden, spread as the human population spread.

The Bible teaches that salvation is through faith in Christ. The way one hears of Christ is through the Gospel message. Because God desires for all men to be saved, He gets the Gospel to all who once they can conceive of a supreme being, desire to learn more about Him. If at the point of God consciousness there is negitive volition, then God has no obligation to get the Gospel to that person.

To imply that God does not get the Gospel to those who desire to know more about God once they can conceive of Him, simply because it is not stated in those exact words, is no different than denying the triune nature of God because the word 'Trinity' isn't in the Bible. Or denying the rapture because the word 'rapture' isn't found in the Bible.

Last edited by Mike555; 07-12-2010 at 06:25 PM..
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