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Old 07-12-2010, 07:20 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,774,540 times
Reputation: 264

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Sounds like an attempt to deny the importance and necessity of the Gospel.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Because God is perfectly just and fair, He will get the Gospel message to all who have positive volition at the point of God consciousness, so that they can make a decision about Christ. It doesn't have to have a sentence to that effect (with those exact words) in the Bible for it to be true.

Jesus gave the great commission in Matt 28:19 ''Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations , baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

And the Gospel spread throughout the inhabited world.

Acts 17:6 And when they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, ''These men who have upset the world (the inhabited earth) have come here also;

Colossians 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel, [6] which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth,

1 Timothy 3:16 And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness; He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

In Old Testament times, the Gospel which is as old as the fall of man in the garden, spread as the human population spread.

The Bible teaches that salvation is through faith in Christ. The way one hears of Christ is through the Gospel message. Because God desires for all men to be saved, He gets the Gospel to all who once they can conceive of a supreme being, desire to learn more about Him. If at the point of God consciousness there is negitive volition, then God has no obligation to get the Gospel to that person.

To imply that God does not get the Gospel to those who desire to know more about God once they can conceive of Him, simply because it is not stated in those exact words, is no different than denying the triune nature of God because the word 'Trinity' isn't in the Bible. Or denying the rapture because the word 'rapture' isn't found in the Bible.
Things in your post that are not in the bible:

- Conceive of a supreme being
- God consciousness
- Positive volition
- Negative volition
- God's obligation or lack thereof
- Decision about Christ

What you posted is piece-milled together, and is necessary for you to believe God has mercy to some degree. You say, "It doesn't have to have a sentence to that effect (with those exact words) in the Bible for it to be true." I agree, but I also believe that if it does say it in exact words, then it is true. For example:

God will have all mankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

God is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:
18 Therefore, as through one manís offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Manís righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one manís disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Manís obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 3:17:
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

 
Old 07-12-2010, 07:28 PM
 
7,816 posts, read 10,719,516 times
Reputation: 3452
Good Evening, everyone!

This is just a "reminder" to please stay ON TOPIC and address the OP. (Not necessarily sparring with, flaming, or attacking one another.)

Okay?

....Cuz June hates closing threads!



Thanks!
 
Old 07-12-2010, 08:02 PM
 
22,009 posts, read 16,770,811 times
Reputation: 8785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Things in your post that are not in the bible:

- Conceive of a supreme being
- God consciousness
- Positive volition
- Negative volition
- God's obligation or lack thereof
- Decision about Christ

What you posted is piece-milled together, and is necessary for you to believe God has mercy to some degree.
To the contrary. Nothing has been piece-milled together. Here is what I posted.

''Sounds like an attempt to deny the importance and necessity of the Gospel.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Because God is perfectly just and fair, He will get the Gospel message to all who have positive volition at the point of God consciousness, so that they can make a decision about Christ. It doesn't have to have a sentence to that effect (with those exact words) in the Bible for it to be true.

Jesus gave the great commission in Matt 28:19 ''Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations , baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

And the Gospel spread throughout the inhabited world.

Acts 17:6 And when they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, ''These men who have upset the world (the inhabited earth) have come here also;

Colossians 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel, [6] which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth,

1 Timothy 3:16 And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness; He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

In Old Testament times, the Gospel which is as old as the fall of man in the garden, spread as the human population spread.

The Bible teaches that salvation is through faith in Christ. The way one hears of Christ is through the Gospel message. Because God desires for all men to be saved, He gets the Gospel to all who once they can conceive of a supreme being, desire to learn more about Him. If at the point of God consciousness there is negitive volition, then God has no obligation to get the Gospel to that person.

To imply that God does not get the Gospel to those who desire to know more about God once they can conceive of Him, simply because it is not stated in those exact words, is no different than denying the triune nature of God because the word 'Trinity' isn't in the Bible. Or denying the rapture because the word 'rapture' isn't found in the Bible.''


Quote:
You say, "It doesn't have to have a sentence to that effect (with those exact words) in the Bible for it to be true." I agree, but I also believe that if it does say it in exact words, then it is true. For example:

God will have all mankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

God is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 3:17:
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Typical of the universalist to use those passages and try to redefine them to promote universalism. These have been explained time and time again on varous threads and I'll not waste my time explaining them here.

Anyone reading this and who wants to can simply do a search on the passages and see what they mean.

As for the words or phrases that I used which are not mentioned in the Bible, there are many theological terms, technical terms which are not found in the Bible. Again, like trinity and rapture. Two words not used in the Bible but which explain principles which are in the Bible.

Moderator cut: DELETED

Last edited by june 7th; 07-12-2010 at 08:20 PM..
 
Old 07-12-2010, 08:53 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,774,540 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Anyone reading this and who wants to can simply do a search on the passages and see what they mean.
Or they could just read them.
 
Old 07-12-2010, 09:45 PM
 
697 posts, read 915,677 times
Reputation: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Perverting and distorting the truth is what you call 'fun'? Satan uses many to deceive the world.
Yes, that's been well established. The pot and kettle are black, I'm rubber, you're glue, and all that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God's perfect righteousness demands perfect righteousness in His creatures. He cannot have fellowship with those who don't have that perfect righteousness.
Then there is fellowship with no one, since only God has perfect righteousness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Loving God is not an issue in salvation. It is not the criteria for salvation.
I agree with this, because I believe there is NOTHING we, as sinful and unworthy human beings, can do to earn our own salvation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The ONLY issue in salvation is to believe in Christ for salvation. Love for God after salvation comes with spiritual growth through learning and applying Bible doctrine.
This love sounds so grim the way you put it. Where's the joy? I disagree anyway - there is NOTHING we can do to earn our own salvation. We are saved by faith... but faith is provided by God's grace! We can not produce faith on our own. See how circular it is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
When any member of the human race places his trust in Christ for salvation, then and only then does God impute His very own perfect righteousness to that person (Phil 3:9; Acts 26:18; Romans 3:20-28). Then and only then can God pronounce that person to be justified. Additionally, at the point of faith in Christ, God imputes His very own eternal life to that person. Those are the qualifications for spending eternity with God. Having perfect righteousness and having eternal life. Neither of which are automatic because of the Cross. What Christ did on the Cross made it possible for salvation to be offered. It requires a decision to place your faith in Christ in order to receive God's righteousness and eternal life and therefore be eternally saved.
No, you are claiming that we have to do something to be saved. There is NOTHING we can do. We do not have power over our own salvation. Only God has that power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
And there is no love in lulling others into a false sense of security about their eternal future. Neither is there any love for God in attempting to paint Him as a ruthless coercer of man because of the fact that He must operate within the framework of His holy nature.
What are you talking about? The love is in helping people see the love! It is in showing the love. We are called to love one another. The love is there all along. Some people don't know it is there and we can bring them to it, some feel it and call it something else, some people are closer to God than you and I will ever be and yet are not called Christians. False sense of security? Bah. How is experiencing God's love a false sense of security?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God cannot and will not compromise His essence in order to save man. Man must come to God in the way that God requires.
I would like to turn what you say upside down. God cannot and will not compromise His essence in order to kill man. God will come to man in the way the God chooses.

I'm sorry Mike you think I am so misguided. Likewise I feel sorrow for you.
 
Old 07-12-2010, 09:53 PM
 
697 posts, read 915,677 times
Reputation: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Another hypothetical that might fit a lot of Christians is this: You are a little child with a loving daddy. You are told by everyone around you that he is good and kind. When you get just a little older, you are told that he does indeed love you very, very much, but he's going to set the neighbor's child on fire because he didn't believe all the people who told him that he was a good and kind man. Do you still love your daddy?

Most Christians were told, "Jesus loves the little children of the world," when they were little, but later were told he would torture most of them. God's love had already been accepted into their heart before they even knew about the bad news, so the love remained while the denial of this split personality God helped them cope.

I know in my case, I tried not to think about ET, but when I finally faced it head-on, I asked God myself why it had to be that way and why Jesus' sacrifice couldn't save everyone, and to my surprise He began to reveal to me that it does!
Exactly!
 
Old 07-12-2010, 10:00 PM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,582,965 times
Reputation: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmalltownKSgirl View Post
Yes, that's been well established. The pot and kettle are black, I'm rubber, you're glue, and all that.



Then there is fellowship with no one, since only God has perfect righteousness.



I agree with this, because I believe there is NOTHING we, as sinful and unworthy human beings, can do to earn our own salvation.



This love sounds so grim the way you put it. Where's the joy? I disagree anyway - there is NOTHING we can do to earn our own salvation. We are saved by faith... but faith is provided by God's grace! We can not produce faith on our own. See how circular it is?



No, you are claiming that we have to do something to be saved. There is NOTHING we can do. We do not have power over our own salvation. Only God has that power.



What are you talking about? The love is in helping people see the love! It is in showing the love. We are called to love one another. The love is there all along. Some people don't know it is there and we can bring them to it, some feel it and call it something else, some people are closer to God than you and I will ever be and yet are not called Christians. False sense of security? Bah. How is experiencing God's love a false sense of security?



I would like to turn what you say upside down. God cannot and will not compromise His essence in order to kill man. God will come to man in the way the God chooses.

I'm sorry Mike you think I am so misguided. Likewise I feel sorrow for you.
You SmalltownKSgirl can certainly hold your ground...tried to rep but can't...
 
Old 07-12-2010, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,772,831 times
Reputation: 1595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Things in your post that are not in the bible:

- Conceive of a supreme being
- God consciousness
- Positive volition
- Negative volition
- God's obligation or lack thereof
- Decision about Christ

What you posted is piece-milled together, and is necessary for you to believe God has mercy to some degree. You say, "It doesn't have to have a sentence to that effect (with those exact words) in the Bible for it to be true." I agree, but I also believe that if it does say it in exact words, then it is true. For example:

God will have all mankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

God is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:
18 Therefore, as through one manís offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Manís righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one manís disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Manís obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 3:17:
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Excellent post using logic and reason.
 
Old 07-12-2010, 11:44 PM
 
22,009 posts, read 16,770,811 times
Reputation: 8785
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmalltownKSgirl View Post


Then there is fellowship with no one, since only God has perfect righteousness.
That's the point. Man cannot measure up to God's standards. Therefore, when and only when a person places their faith in Christ for salvation, God imputes HIS perfect righteousness as well as His eternal life to the one who has believed in Christ qualifying that person to live with God forever.

Phil 3:9 'And may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

Quote:
This love sounds so grim the way you put it. Where's the joy? I disagree anyway - there is NOTHING we can do to earn our own salvation. We are saved by faith... but faith is provided by God's grace! We can not produce faith on our own. See how circular it is?
To the contrary. God provides the Gospel message, and man must supply the faith. Faith is trust. You trust Christ on the basis of what you have learned from hearing the Gospel message, to provide salvation. Jesus places the responsibility to believe-to have faith, on man. John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.''


Quote:
No, you are claiming that we have to do something to be saved. There is NOTHING we can do. We do not have power over our own salvation. Only God has that power.
I claim no such thing. Faith is not a work. Refer back to Romans 4:5 which has been posted above. The word of God makes a clear distinction between faith and works. Salvation is contengent upon faith in Christ.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life, but he who does not believe in the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Quote:
What are you talking about? The love is in helping people see the love! It is in showing the love. We are called to love one another. The love is there all along. Some people don't know it is there and we can bring them to it, some feel it and call it something else, some people are closer to God than you and I will ever be and yet are not called Christians. False sense of security? Bah. How is experiencing God's love a false sense of security?
I'll tell you exactly what I am talking about. You people who contradict the word of God with your false message of universal salvation are lulling gullible people into a false sense of security about their eternal future. Fortunately, most people have sense enough to know that universalism is a false Gosple. The Bible is clear that those who reject Christ as Savior are eternally lost. But along come you people with Satan's message that all will be saved, which is contrary to reality. And that is the hatred of Satan who uses those who promote universal salvation. No one who has not believed in Christ is close to God. Anyone who has not believed in Christ remains under eternal condemnation.


Quote:
I would like to turn what you say upside down. God cannot and will not compromise His essence in order to kill man. God will come to man in the way the God chooses.
It is the word of God you turn upside down. God has done all He can do without compromising His essence, to save man from the reality of hell. God has provided a way to escape that fate. Christ did the work on the Cross that was necessary to make salvation possible. But until a person believes in Christ, makes a conscious decision based on the Gospel message, to place his trust in Christ, that person will not be saved.

Quote:
I'm sorry Mike you think I am so misguided. Likewise I feel sorrow for you.
Save your sorrow for yourself.

Many universalists have never understood the issue involved in salvation and therefore, are not saved. Many universalists will spend eternity in hell. And because of promoting their false Gospel, their punishment in hell will be all the greater. Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
 
Old 07-13-2010, 12:25 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,299,831 times
Reputation: 869
Again, more threats!
I cannot accept a doctrine of extortion as "the word of God." (Anyone who doesn't understand what extortion is can read it in a dictionary.)
Without experience in the Spirit, we cannot truly understand the scriptures, because they were inspired by the Holy Ghost, which many people have never known. Many doctrines today are man-made, and eternal torment is one of them. Extortion is not Godly. It is not "just," it is not "holy," no matter how they twist it.

"God has done all He can" is also man-made. The TRUTH is that MAN has done all he can, and he is failing miserably. Only the Good Shepherd can save the sheep, it is not the sheep that are asked to "return to the fold."

Blessings to all,
brian
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