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Old 07-11-2010, 07:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I am surprised.

I thought I would get negative reactions. I didn't-- thanks. Truth be told I do like to understand POVs that I disagree with. Note my user title. Being a moderate means you desire to consider both sides of an issue.

Just don't get the idea you can convert me tho.

I think the after death details have never been fully explained on this board. I want "facts" or at the least opinions. Give me your understanding-some of you have. Thanks
Yes they have . . . in another thread.

This will be a bit tricky . . . as it is highly dependent on how strongly the Holy Spirit has convicted you and established sensitivity to others. Have you ever willfully done anything for selfish reasons (or just inconsiderate or negligent reasons) . . . that produced serious irreparable harm or consequences to someone you care about . . . and there is nothing that can ever be done to "undo it?" Have you ever experienced the constant and recurring pangs of remorse over it because you are now more aware and sensitized to it (and things like it.)?

I suspect THAT is the kind of experiences that will be involved in "refining" because at that time the Holy Spirit will have definitely convicted your soul and opened your eyes and heart to the full import of your deeds. Weeping and gnashing of teeth probably does not remotely capture it.
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Old 07-11-2010, 07:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Yes they have . . . in another thread.

This will be a bit tricky . . . as it is highly dependent on how strongly the Holy Spirit has convicted you and established sensitivity to others. Have you ever willfully done anything for selfish reasons (or just inconsiderate or negligent reasons) . . . that produced serious irreparable harm or consequences to someone you care about . . . and there is nothing that can ever be done to "undo it?" Have you ever experienced the constant and recurring pangs of remorse over it because you are now more aware and sensitized to it (and things like it.)?

I suspect THAT is the kind of experiences that will be involved in "refining" because at that time the Holy Spirit will have definitely convicted your soul and opened your eyes and heart to the full import of your deeds. Weeping and gnashing of teeth probably does not remotely capture it.

This is exactly what is in my heart. And YES I have experienced this. And I can't even begin to describe the "fire". But... the fire has and is doing it's work, it's accomplishing the purpose that it is intended for. In a multitude of ways. And it is very personal. And God's love has not gone anywhere. It is felt THROUGH this fire. It's hard to describe.
LOVE becomes something... so big, so majestic... so powerful... I can't fully describe what I mean here. LOVE is everything. Love is the MOST POWERFUL thing in the universe. God IS love.

I have to stop here. Because I feel this is one of those things that just next to impossible to try and put into words.

peace,
sparrow
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Old 07-11-2010, 07:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I'll answer a couple of your questions.

There are a lot of stubborn children out there who would rather run away than to have to live with their parents and follow their rules. They stomp around, curse their parents, and sometimes do terrible things. If they wanted to come back, would their parents allow them to come back? If they had truly changed? I believe God allows a lot of people to go through enough here on this planet that they would not want to rebel ever again. I wonder about that sometimes.

Does the "fire" hurt? Does it hurt to stand in front of a very powerful judge who can do whatever he wants with you and nobody in the whole universe can stop him, knowing that you have failed and put things into motion that have harmed others? A judge who knows you better than anybody, even yourself? A judge that can see every motivation of your heart? Have you ever been around something extraordinarily pure and powerful? I can't imagine coming into contact with something like that and still rolling my eyes and crossing my arms. I guess some might.

Those who refuse or do not understand the covering that Christ provides with his righteousness will be thrown in the "lake" of "fire", and not only those, but also believers who are still timid, fearful, etc. (Revelation 21:8. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.")

Why would the fearful be grouped in with murderers?

The following conversation between Satan, young man and lady from: L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire Part VI
SATAN: "And why are you here, young man?"
YOUNG MAN: "In my life I was ABOMINABLE, committed MURDERS, practiced SORCERY, and was an IDOLATER!"
SATAN: "Throw this young man into the burning lake of fire for all eternity!"
SATAN: "And why are you here, young lady?"
YOUNG LADY: "I have never done anything abominable or committed murder or practiced sorcery, nor was I an idolater. But when I heard all those Hell-fire and brimstone sermons on television by all those worldly millionaire preachers of doom, I became a little "fearful" as I am timid by nature."
SATAN: "Throw this evil sinner into the burning lake of fire for all eternity!"
SATAN: "Demon Scribe, how many fearful and timid young ladies have we thrown into the lake of fire thus far?
DEMON SCRIBE: "Your Unholy Corruptness: that last one makes four billion, six hundred and eighty-nine million, five hundred and seventy-eight thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine!"
SATAN: "Very good! NextÖ.."




Why does the adversary get thrown in with believers? What kind of fire torments the adversary?


Fire used in scripture:



"His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were as a flame of FIRE" (Rev. 1:14).


"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes though it be tarried with FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).


"And the tongue is a FIREÖ" (James 3:6).


"And of the angels He says, Who makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of FIRE" (Heb. 1:7).


"Every manís work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the FIRE shall try every manís work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).


"For our God is a consuming FIRE"(Heb. 12:29).


"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of FIRE (shaming him) on his head" (Rom. 12:20).


"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the latchet of Whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE" (Luke 3:16).


"For EVERY ONE shall be salted with FIRE, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt" (Mark 9:49).


"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refinerís FIRE, and like fullersí soap" (Malachi 3:2).




Pride and rebellion will be wiped out in a blink of the eye, in my opinion. You can't stand in front of that power and think you are ever going to get away without being harmed. Will those that stand in front of this judge be changed? You can't argue with it forever.

I believe God when he says he is reconciling things in the heavens and the earth. I pick up the rest of my doctrine from there.







Great post
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Old 07-11-2010, 07:21 PM
 
309 posts, read 303,895 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Yes they have . . . in another thread.

This will be a bit tricky . . . as it is highly dependent on how strongly the Holy Spirit has convicted you and established sensitivity to others. Have you ever willfully done anything for selfish reasons (or just inconsiderate or negligent reasons) . . . that produced serious irreparable harm or consequences to someone you care about . . . and there is nothing that can ever be done to "undo it?" Have you ever experienced the constant and recurring pangs of remorse over it because you are now more aware and sensitized to it (and things like it.)?

I suspect THAT is the kind of experiences that will be involved in "refining" because at that time the Holy Spirit will have definitely convicted your soul and opened your eyes and heart to the full import of your deeds. Weeping and gnashing of teeth probably does not remotely capture it.
MysticPhd....great way to think of it.

Mr5150...read on Joseph and his brothers. This reveals what MysticPhd is saying very well. His brother were pleagued with these thoughts even AFTER Joseph revealed himself to them. They were truely 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' withIN themselves.
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Old 07-11-2010, 07:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Honestly, I think UR is error.
But I do have a desire to understand the theology behind it. So tell me this: What is the fate of those who reject Jesus? I have come to understand on this board they will be purified by fire.
I speak for myself on this part and not all who believe in UR. At this point in time, I think followers' souls go to be with the Lord directly at death, and non-followers stay in the grave until the resurrection of the dead. I look at it this way because of the verses that say believers have "eternal"/"age-during" life, and that the wages of sin are death, etc. I think maybe believers are with him, and overcomers reign with Him for the 1,000 years, but non-followers are dead during that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
What does that mean?
Think of the potter and the clay. The potter molds the clay until it's in the shape he wants it be, and then he fires it, which sets it permanently and makes it a usable vessel. Think of the verses about wood, hay, and stubble being burned away, but the gold, silver, and precious stones remaining. Look up all the fire verses and you'll see that God is in the midst of the fire.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
How long does the process take?

Will it hurt?

Will it feel good?
No one knows. It would be foolish of anyone to say they KNOW what happens to people after death, because no one really knows.

I look at Paul as an example of how God transforms people. Paul had no intention of turning his life over to God, but God had other plans for him. He appeared to him in a bright light, which blinded Paul for three days. Scales fell from his eyes and then he could see. We don't know why it was for three days or what else he might have gone through during the revealing of God to him. It does sound like the transformation was instant and Paul immediately said, "Lord, what do you want me to do?" He didn't have to stop and think about making a decision or believing. He came face to face with truth, like unbelievers will after death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
And how exactly does a person who really doesn't want anything to do with God get convinced to get with the program? Is he or she forced by God's love to do something they don't want? Believe me, I have conversed with people who would rather die than be with God.
IMO, someone who says they would rather die than be with God, means to say "god," not "God." In other words, they would rather die than be with their understanding of who they believe God is, not the true and living God, who is Love. As a silly analogy, let's say that a little child had never eaten chocolate. There is a bowl of chocolate pudding sitting in front of them and someone tells them is tastes like poo. The child might say they would rather eat mud than chocolate. So, even though they fully believe that's how they feel, they are misinformed about the real difference between mud and chocolate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
How does freewill enter the equation? Or are we just stuck with fate?
There are a lot of other threads on free will, but IMO, it makes no sense to believe that God would be too nice to force someone to heaven, but would force them to burn forever. Also, think of the Paul conversion. Where was his free will? God revealed himself and immediately Saul's will changed to Paul's will, and like we've said, Saul won't be in heaven. Paul will.
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Old 07-11-2010, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
MysticPhd....great way to think of it.

Mr5150...read on Joseph and his brothers. This reveals what MysticPhd is saying very well. His brother were pleagued with these thoughts even AFTER Joseph revealed himself to them. They were truely 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' withIN themselves.
Yes, and the Pharisees gnashed their teeth at Jesus many times, I can imagine. Anger, sorrow, and fear can make you clench your teeth.

Here is an instance where people were gnashing their teeth. They got so angry, they had Stephen killed (Saul/Paul consented to his death). Notice what Stephen said.


Acts 7:54-60

54. When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him.

55. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

56. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

57. At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, (58) dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

59. While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

60. Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:11 PM
 
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When ones asks, "Will an atheist be forced to accept God in the afterlife," I think this is such a silly question, but only because the person asking is unaware of a very important fact: to be in the presence of the Lord; to feel the overwhelming love emanating from Him would melt even the most hardened heart. In short, being in the presence of the Lord would make it absolutely impossible for someone to feel anything but absolute love for Him, regardless of your sentiments in this life, which I believe are totally changed once we get over to the other side anyway.
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
When ones asks, "Will an atheist be forced to accept God in the afterlife," I think this is such a silly question, but only because the person asking is unaware of a very important fact: to be in the presence of the Lord; to feel the overwhelming love emanating from Him would melt even the most hardened heart. In short, being in the presence of the Lord would make it absolutely impossible for someone to feel anything but absolute love for Him, regardless of your sentiments in this life, which I believe are totally changed once we get over to the other side anyway.
Exactly! It's the same thing that happened to Saul/Paul.
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
When ones asks, "Will an atheist be forced to accept God in the afterlife," I think this is such a silly question, but only because the person asking is unaware of a very important fact: to be in the presence of the Lord; to feel the overwhelming love emanating from Him would melt even the most hardened heart. In short, being in the presence of the Lord would make it absolutely impossible for someone to feel anything but absolute love for Him, regardless of your sentiments in this life, which I believe are totally changed once we get over to the other side anyway.
And I second it..."EXACTLY"
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:22 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,557,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Honestly, I think UR is error.

But I do have a desire to understand the theology behind it. So tell me this: What is the fate of those who reject Jesus? I have come to understand on this board they will be purified by fire.

What does that mean?

Will it hurt?

Will it feel good?

How long does the process take?

And how exactly does a person who really doesn't want anything to do with God get convinced to get with the program? Is he or she forced by God's love to do something they don't want? Believe me, I have conversed with people who would rather die than be with God.

How does freewill enter the equation? Or are we just stuck with fate?


I think any questions about how God deals with unbelievers are unanswerable by us.This is like asking how God actually forgives our sins.Does He look at us through the blood,however that would happen?If we are covered by the blood,exactly how is a spirit covered by blood?Trying to explain HOW salvation works is unanswerable.We can just accept that somehow it IS accomplished,or all our hopes are in vain.Likewise,HOW universal reconciliation will work is pure speculation.Nobody knows,and anyone that tells you they do is simply giving opinions.

The thing about UR is this.We believe that God is great enough to reconcile EVERYTHING back to Himself.To suggest that damage has been done that God cannot repair is an insult to God.To suggest that God does not want to repair all the damage is an insult to God.To believe that there are people who fall outside the love of God is an insult to God.People who believe in UR are not people who oppose God.They are not people who wish to have an excuse to sin.They are simply people who believe that God is greater than evil,that God is greater than sin,that God's grace is greater than man's fall.To us,to believe anything else about God is an insult to Him.
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