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Old 07-11-2010, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
8,413 posts, read 9,165,392 times
Reputation: 13135

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Honestly, I think UR is error.

But I do have a desire to understand the theology behind it. So tell me this: What is the fate of those who reject Jesus? I have come to understand on this board they will be purified by fire.

What does that mean?

Will it hurt?

Will it feel good?

How long does the process take?

And how exactly does a person who really doesn't want anything to do with God get convinced to get with the program? Is he or she forced by God's love to do something they don't want? Believe me, I have conversed with people who would rather die than be with God.

How does freewill enter the equation? Or are we just stuck with fate?
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Old 07-11-2010, 05:08 PM
 
Location: New England
32,300 posts, read 21,149,668 times
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You deserve a rep just for your openess , but unfortunately at the mo i cannot give you one , so if anyone has a spare one going please rep this brother .

Thanks in advance
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Old 07-11-2010, 05:17 PM
 
309 posts, read 304,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Honestly, I think UR is error.

But I do have a desire to understand the theology behind it. So tell me this: What is the fate of those who reject Jesus? I have come to understand on this board they will be purified by fire.

What does that mean?
I can try to explain this to you but I dont think you want to hear it. But a hint would be, that in scriptures there are tongues of fire (things 'heard'), eyes of fire (things 'seen').

Quote:
Will it hurt?

Will it feel good?
Ya....hurts like 'hell' (pun intended...lol). It IS torture, but not in the way that most think.

Quote:
How long does the process take?
As long as it takes for the Old Man to die.

Quote:
And how exactly does a person who really doesn't want anything to do with God get convinced to get with the program? Is he or she forced by God's love to do something they don't want? Believe me, I have conversed with people who would rather die than be with God.
ALL of Man are sinners. There is no difference from this he/she person than there is with the Pharoah, who was 'raised' to do what he did. There are honored vessels and dishonored vessels. God created both just the way they are.

Quote:
How does freewill enter the equation? Or are we just stuck with fate?
Man has no 'freewill'. It is IMPOSSIBLE for any one person to make an UNCAUSED decision. We are CAUSED to do this or that. Man 'left to himself' will ALWAYS choose wrongly. We do what we are accustomed to doing. A sinner SINS.
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Old 07-11-2010, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
21,188 posts, read 21,036,112 times
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I just wanted to say that - I don't think it's that unbelievers don't WANT to be with God - it's just that they don't BELIEVE in God. I think that if, after we died, we came face to face with God - that might changes things just a bit! But I don't think it's a matter of wanting or not wanting to be with God - it's just that - if you don't believe in God - it's a moot point. It's sort of like asking you if you want to spend eternity with someone or something that you don't believe in. It's not that you would be adverse to the idea - it's just that it doesn't fit into the realm of possibilities for you. That's all I wanted to say. Carry on!
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Old 07-11-2010, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,681,585 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Honestly, I think UR is error.

But I do have a desire to understand the theology behind it. So tell me this: What is the fate of those who reject Jesus? I have come to understand on this board they will be purified by fire.

What does that mean?
I don't rightly know. I know what happened to me when I was sorting out all this...I would definitely call it being refined by fire.

Quote:
Will it hurt?
I agree with Joe.. it hurts like hell (pun intended). It's like giving up your baby bottle.. it is painful, emotionally, but absolutely necessary for real growth to occur. It was when I was in the most emotionally drained state that I was able to see the love of God shine through scripture.

Quote:
Will it feel good?
Afterward I felt great... what a comfort it was to know that all men would share in the glory of God..!

Quote:
How long does the process take?
God only knows... literally. For me it was 2 years of pure agony before I really began to resemble gold (still some spots here and there that need further work, I am sure).

Quote:
And how exactly does a person who really doesn't want anything to do with God get convinced to get with the program? Is he or she forced by God's love to do something they don't want? Believe me, I have conversed with people who would rather die than be with God.

How does freewill enter the equation? Or are we just stuck with fate?
With man salvation is impossible... with God ALL THINGS are possible. I trust he can "git 'er done"

The problem with most interpretations of being saved is that it has something to do with an afterlife but I find that the afterlife doesn't really matter until after life... and UR addresses life here on earth: The only way to achieve a cohesive body of people on earth is to "love one another."
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Old 07-11-2010, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,681,585 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdrop93 View Post
I just wanted to say that - I don't think it's that unbelievers don't WANT to be with God - it's just that they don't BELIEVE in God. I think that if, after we died, we came face to face with God - that might changes things just a bit! But I don't think it's a matter of wanting or not wanting to be with God - it's just that - if you don't believe in God - it's a moot point. It's sort of like asking you if you want to spend eternity with someone or something that you don't believe in. It's not that you would be adverse to the idea - it's just that it doesn't fit into the realm of possibilities for you. That's all I wanted to say. Carry on!
I agree. Many believers are that way toward other religious views of God yet expect their version to fit everyone like a glove. IMO it doesn't always and why should it? We all have different views on many things.
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Old 07-11-2010, 05:56 PM
 
5,807 posts, read 4,795,344 times
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Mr5150, I know that you have started several threads now on Universalism. And I think that your questions on this thread are EXCELLENT questions. It is my OPINION... though, and something that I really do wonder is..WHO can answer these questions? This is something that I don't think anyone knows for sure.

Personally I do not believe this is something that God is revealing. (all of the details of the how, etc.) To me, it makes perfect sense that we are NOT to know right now. There are certain things that God has put into place and that is the revealing and concealing of knowledge. This is all for a reason. I believe that there are many things happening that we do not understand. It is this way for a reason. It just makes perfect sense that it's like this. If we knew everything, what would be the point? The revealing and concealing is ALL part of His plan. There are many things that HE is showing us, has shown us, and WILL BE showing us ALL... by all of the things that happen in this world and HOW they have happened. And why people's actions follow what is in their heart. How much truth has been revealed to them about His character. And there are many who know a lot of truth, but to christians they are not wearing the right "label". To me, God doesn't see labels. He doesn't work with labels the way we do. He works in the heart.


I fully believe that which we believed which is FALSE, will fall off us, turn to dust, be destroyed and that which we believed that was TRUTH, we will carry with us and take with us. The "wide road to destruction" that is what is happening. So much **IS** on that wide road to destruction! And this is a GOOD thing. Human beings are NOT being destroyed. His children ARE NOT being destroyed! It's what is within us that is FALSE.

Having said that, these are my thoughts:
I have full faith in God. I have full faith that His LOVE is the "refining fire". I do not believe it is a literal "fire". Of course not. I believe that His love is what refines us. When your unloving thoughts and unloving actions STANDS next to LOVE.... do you know what kind of FIRE that is in your mind/heart and soul??? THAT is fire, brother. That is the way that I see it. God's LOVE is the refining fire. It is what we NEED to become what God wants us to become. He LOVINGLY refines us. I think it is a serious thing. I do not take it lightly. But I also... know that HE loves us and we are in the best hands possible. If you are a human father... perhaps you will understand what I am saying better. Remember He is OUR father, and He is a far, far, far, far, far, far... etc. etc. Father than ANY human father that ever was. Ponder that. His refinig fire is necessary. And it IS LOVING.HE IS LOVE. His refining us is all rooted in love. Just as a good human father's chastisements. It's all to bring about something beautiful in your child. It is not mindless, it is not evil. It is out of LOVE.


Those who believe in UR agree on one thing: the EXTREME LOVE our Creator has for us and His plan including ALL. He is the Good Shepherd, not one will be lost. Just like anything else, folks are going to have different opinions on different topics. But that is one thing you will see that we ALL agree on.

peace,
sparrow

p.s. Have you studied UR on your own at all? (apart from here on this forum?)
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Old 07-11-2010, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
8,413 posts, read 9,165,392 times
Reputation: 13135
I am surprised.

I thought I would get negative reactions. I didn't-- thanks. Truth be told I do like to understand POVs that I disagree with. Note my user title. Being a moderate means you desire to consider both sides of an issue.

Just don't get the idea you can convert me tho.

I think the after death details have never been fully explained on this board. I want "facts" or at the least opinions. Give me your understanding-some of you have. Thanks
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Old 07-11-2010, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,494,944 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Honestly, I think UR is error.

But I do have a desire to understand the theology behind it. So tell me this: What is the fate of those who reject Jesus? I have come to understand on this board they will be purified by fire.

What does that mean?

Will it hurt?

Will it feel good?

How long does the process take?

And how exactly does a person who really doesn't want anything to do with God get convinced to get with the program? Is he or she forced by God's love to do something they don't want? Believe me, I have conversed with people who would rather die than be with God.

How does freewill enter the equation? Or are we just stuck with fate?
I'll answer a couple of your questions.

There are a lot of stubborn children out there who would rather run away than to have to live with their parents and follow their rules. They stomp around, curse their parents, and sometimes do terrible things. If they wanted to come back, would their parents allow them to come back? If they had truly changed? I believe God allows a lot of people to go through enough here on this planet that they would not want to rebel ever again. I wonder about that sometimes.

Does the "fire" hurt? Does it hurt to stand in front of a very powerful judge who can do whatever he wants with you and nobody in the whole universe can stop him, knowing that you have failed and put things into motion that have harmed others? A judge who knows you better than anybody, even yourself? A judge that can see every motivation of your heart? Have you ever been around something extraordinarily pure and powerful? I can't imagine coming into contact with something like that and still rolling my eyes and crossing my arms. I guess some might.

Those who refuse or do not understand the covering that Christ provides with his righteousness will be thrown in the "lake" of "fire", and not only those, but also believers who are still timid, fearful, etc. (Revelation 21:8. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.")

Why would the fearful be grouped in with murderers?

The following conversation between Satan, young man and lady from: L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire Part VI
SATAN: "And why are you here, young man?"
YOUNG MAN: "In my life I was ABOMINABLE, committed MURDERS, practiced SORCERY, and was an IDOLATER!"
SATAN: "Throw this young man into the burning lake of fire for all eternity!"
SATAN: "And why are you here, young lady?"
YOUNG LADY: "I have never done anything abominable or committed murder or practiced sorcery, nor was I an idolater. But when I heard all those Hell-fire and brimstone sermons on television by all those worldly millionaire preachers of doom, I became a little "fearful" as I am timid by nature."
SATAN: "Throw this evil sinner into the burning lake of fire for all eternity!"
SATAN: "Demon Scribe, how many fearful and timid young ladies have we thrown into the lake of fire thus far?
DEMON SCRIBE: "Your Unholy Corruptness: that last one makes four billion, six hundred and eighty-nine million, five hundred and seventy-eight thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine!"
SATAN: "Very good! NextÖ.."




Why does the adversary get thrown in with believers? What kind of fire torments the adversary?


Fire used in scripture:



"His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were as a flame of FIRE" (Rev. 1:14).


"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes though it be tarried with FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).


"And the tongue is a FIREÖ" (James 3:6).


"And of the angels He says, Who makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of FIRE" (Heb. 1:7).


"Every manís work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the FIRE shall try every manís work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).


"For our God is a consuming FIRE"(Heb. 12:29).


"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of FIRE (shaming him) on his head" (Rom. 12:20).


"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the latchet of Whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE" (Luke 3:16).


"For EVERY ONE shall be salted with FIRE, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt" (Mark 9:49).


"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refinerís FIRE, and like fullersí soap" (Malachi 3:2).




Pride and rebellion will be wiped out in a blink of the eye, in my opinion. You can't stand in front of that power and think you are ever going to get away without being harmed. Will those that stand in front of this judge be changed? You can't argue with it forever.

I believe God when he says he is reconciling things in the heavens and the earth. I pick up the rest of my doctrine from there.






Last edited by herefornow; 07-11-2010 at 06:40 PM..
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Old 07-11-2010, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,681,585 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I am surprised.

I thought I would get negative reactions. I didn't-- thanks. Truth be told I do like to understand POVs that I disagree with. Note my user title. Being a moderate means you desire to consider both sides of an issue.

Just don't get the idea you can convert me tho.

I think the after death details have never been fully explained on this board. I want "facts" or at the least opinions. Give me your understanding-some of you have. Thanks
I don't really see the bible addressing life after death much at all. Except to give name to the grave but beyond that we really can't say, can we?

All we can gather from the bible is that what is recorded as having been done... has been done. If we think we are seen by God as sinners we continue to act like sinners, but the moment we clear our conscience and see ourselves as God sees us then we also see others through the love of God.

That is what a good life is... as for an afterlife, I really couldn't tell you. I surmise that we all return to the core of creation. What happens after that is anyone's guess. We have such a short span of time to spend knowing our fellow man and loving one another.. IOW... Life is short, play hard (lovingly, of course).
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