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Old 07-13-2010, 01:16 PM
 
159 posts, read 150,281 times
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A lot of people say universalism is subversive belief because it says Hitler and Stalin will end up in Heaven eventually. I am neither UR-er nor Fundamentalist so I have no horse in this race. However, I think the idea that everyone how didn't accept Jesus in this lifetime (and I know there are plenty of people believing exactly that on this forum) is far more subversive. Here's what I mean:

The thing is that, according to standard Fundamentalist theology it is essentially meaningless to make example of extreme criminals and mass murderers when by that theology almost everyone else (including most of their victims) is going to eternal hell. Yeah, Hitler is in hell, but so what? So is every single Jew who died in Holocaust. Such theology has nothing to do with good and evil and everything to do with accepting Jesus in this lifetime. That's the only way to judge worth of a man.

You can say want you want about UR-ers here, but they are saying that Hitler & Co are going to be punished trough many ages before being admitted to heaven. So they admit that who we are and what we do make plenty of difference. According to many Fundamentalists only action that at all matters on this Earth is accepting Jesus. This makes every mass murderer and every non-Christian victim of mass murderer basically the same in the eyes of God.

This essentially throws entire concept of good and evil out of the window. So if universalism is subversive, where does Fundamentalism falls? Why should anyone ever differentiate between honest non-believer and a monster? Was Hitler even wrong and why? God is supposed to have more fine-tuned sense of Justice than us, not less.

Only possible defense I have seen is that God does send a missionary to anyone who has 'positive volition' to hear gospel. This makes sense on paper (Communism made sense on paper, too) but simply doesn't work out in reality. A lot people (especially Catholic) view Socrates as pre-Christian martyr and it was Plato and Aristotle who influenced Augustine. And you are saying none of them would have accepted Jesus had he arrived a few centuries earlier?

Samurai, elite warriors of medieval Japan, who predate Christian missionaries by at least few centuries, lived by strict code of honor. Many compare them to medieval knights. These people definitely didn't 'love darkness more than light'. They followed rules they held sacred as best as they could. Are those of them who died before missionaries have reached Japan all in hell now?

And although many people 'reject' gospel, many more people whose parents are Christians accept Christ than those whose parents aren't. Accident of birth plays huge part.

This "God sends missionaries to anyone who would listen" sounds good in theory but has about as much evidence for working in practice as Communism. In fact most theology is like that. Makes sense in theory but useless or just plain wrong for any practical application. History of science is full of theories that were airtight and seemed logical on paper but turned completely wrong when tested against real world.

I am basically saying that the Fundamentalist concept of hell makes universe seem like really small place with too many decent people tortured in hell for no good reason, too many civilizations created by people doing their best with little light they had that amounts to absolutely nothing in the eyes of God. Aren't there any other stories worth telling in this wast Universe except accept - Jesus - as- your - savior?

So yeah, tell me about all other creeds being 'subversive'. I am listening.

Last edited by python87; 07-13-2010 at 01:32 PM..
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:49 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,628,744 times
Reputation: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by python87 View Post
A lot of people say universalism is subversive belief because it says Hitler and Stalin will end up in Heaven eventually. I am neither UR-er nor Fundamentalist so I have no horse in this race. However, I think the idea that everyone how didn't accept Jesus in this lifetime (and I know there are plenty of people believing exactly that on this forum) is far more subversive. Here's what I mean:

The thing is that, according to standard Fundamentalist theology it is essentially meaningless to make example of extreme criminals and mass murderers when by that theology almost everyone else (including most of their victims) is going to eternal hell. Yeah, Hitler is in hell, but so what? So is every single Jew who died in Holocaust. Such theology has nothing to do with good and evil and everything to do with accepting Jesus in this lifetime. That's the only way to judge worth of a man.

You can say want you want about UR-ers here, but they are saying that Hitler & Co are going to be punished trough many ages before being admitted to heaven. So they admit that who we are and what we do make plenty of difference. According to many Fundamentalists only action that at all matters on this Earth is accepting Jesus. This makes every mass murderer and every non-Christian victim of mass murderer basically the same in the eyes of God.

This essentially throws entire concept of good and evil out of the window. So if universalism is subversive, where does Fundamentalism falls? Why should anyone ever differentiate between honest non-believer and a monster? Was Hitler even wrong and why? God is supposed to have more fine-tuned sense of Justice than us, not less.

Only possible defense I have seen is that God does send a missionary to anyone who has 'positive volition' to hear gospel. This makes sense on paper (Communism made sense on paper, too) but simply doesn't work out in reality. A lot people (especially Catholic) view Socrates as pre-Christian martyr and it was Plato and Aristotle who influenced Augustine. And you are saying none of them would have accepted Jesus had he arrived a few centuries earlier?

Samurai, elite warriors of medieval Japan, who predate Christian missionaries by at least few centuries, lived by strict code of honor. Many compare them to medieval knights. These people definitely didn't 'love darkness more than light'. They followed rules they held sacred as best as they could. Are those of them who died before missionaries have reached Japan all in hell now?

And although many people 'reject' gospel, many more people whose parents are Christians accept Christ than those whose parents aren't. Accident of birth plays huge part.

This "God sends missionaries to anyone who would listen" sounds good in theory but has about as much evidence for working in practice as Communism. In fact most theology is like that. Makes sense in theory but useless or just plain wrong for any practical application. History of science is full of theories that were airtight and seemed logical on paper but turned completely wrong when tested against real world.

I am basically saying that the Fundamentalist concept of hell makes universe seem like really small place with too many decent people tortured in hell for no good reason, too many civilizations created by people doing their best with little light they had that amounts to absolutely nothing in the eyes of God. Aren't there any other stories worth telling in this wast Universe except accept - Jesus - as- your - savior?

So yeah, tell me about all other creeds being 'subversive'. I am listening.
You raise a lot of good points. You are forgetting many fundamentalists also believe that everyone deserves to burn in eternal fire forever simply for being born, and it is only due to God's mercy that a select few are chosen to be saved. Under that 'logic' it is irrelevant if you are a Hitler or simply someone who lived a decent life but didn't choose Christ - all deserve hell anyway. It is ironic that a murderer can enjoy the riches of heaven by saying a sinner's prayer (ie. Ted Bundy) while his victims, whose life was cut short may never had the chance to, and are now roasting in hell. Such is the bizarro world of fundamentalism.

It is quite contrary to what the bible actually says: people will reap what they sow and will receive according to what they had done. Since no one can "sow" eternal punishment, no one will reap it. Since no one has done anything deserving of being burned forever, no one will be burning forever. Even under the OT the worst punishment was only death, and typical payment for crime was to pay back double or some other multiple (ie. pay back 7 times). Not infinite punishment for finite crimes.

In order to have any real justice, Hitler must receive something appropriate for his crimes, while his victims will receive according to what they had done. A unilateral infinite punishment across the board removes any possibility of justice based on the severity of what was done. Unless you want to believe Hitler burns in a furnace for eternity while someone else only gets poked with a toothpick for eternity...

When you factor in all the teachings on God's love and forgiveness (ie. forgive 70x7 times) - infinite forgiveness - the idea of infinite punishment is absurd.
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Old 07-13-2010, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
28,575 posts, read 15,510,176 times
Reputation: 11453
You will never understand while your views are centered on mankind - who does what, and what is and what is not fair.

This is about God, His holiness, and how He regards sin.

This is not about what Hitler did in relation to the actions of my neighbor across the street.
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Old 07-13-2010, 03:08 PM
 
159 posts, read 150,281 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
You will never understand while your views are centered on mankind - who does what, and what is and what is not fair.

This is about God, His holiness, and how He regards sin.

This is not about what Hitler did in relation to the actions of my neighbor across the street.
Well, I have tried (I am not saying I succeeded) to imagine how God might look at it all here: Why the party line justifications for hell don't really work . There weren't many responses.

Besides this tread is not primarily about God, it's about why is Universalism seen as subversive to Justice, but Fundamentalism isn't seen like that.
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Old 07-13-2010, 03:12 PM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,581,567 times
Reputation: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by python87 View Post
A lot of people say universalism is subversive belief because it says Hitler and Stalin will end up in Heaven eventually. I am neither UR-er nor Fundamentalist so I have no horse in this race. However, I think the idea that everyone how didn't accept Jesus in this lifetime (and I know there are plenty of people believing exactly that on this forum) is far more subversive. Here's what I mean:

The thing is that, according to standard Fundamentalist theology it is essentially meaningless to make example of extreme criminals and mass murderers when by that theology almost everyone else (including most of their victims) is going to eternal hell. Yeah, Hitler is in hell, but so what? So is every single Jew who died in Holocaust. Such theology has nothing to do with good and evil and everything to do with accepting Jesus in this lifetime. That's the only way to judge worth of a man.

You can say want you want about UR-ers here, but they are saying that Hitler & Co are going to be punished trough many ages before being admitted to heaven. So they admit that who we are and what we do make plenty of difference. According to many Fundamentalists only action that at all matters on this Earth is accepting Jesus. This makes every mass murderer and every non-Christian victim of mass murderer basically the same in the eyes of God.

This essentially throws entire concept of good and evil out of the window. So if universalism is subversive, where does Fundamentalism falls? Why should anyone ever differentiate between honest non-believer and a monster? Was Hitler even wrong and why? God is supposed to have more fine-tuned sense of Justice than us, not less.

Only possible defense I have seen is that God does send a missionary to anyone who has 'positive volition' to hear gospel. This makes sense on paper (Communism made sense on paper, too) but simply doesn't work out in reality. A lot people (especially Catholic) view Socrates as pre-Christian martyr and it was Plato and Aristotle who influenced Augustine. And you are saying none of them would have accepted Jesus had he arrived a few centuries earlier?

Samurai, elite warriors of medieval Japan, who predate Christian missionaries by at least few centuries, lived by strict code of honor. Many compare them to medieval knights. These people definitely didn't 'love darkness more than light'. They followed rules they held sacred as best as they could. Are those of them who died before missionaries have reached Japan all in hell now?

And although many people 'reject' gospel, many more people whose parents are Christians accept Christ than those whose parents aren't. Accident of birth plays huge part.

This "God sends missionaries to anyone who would listen" sounds good in theory but has about as much evidence for working in practice as Communism. In fact most theology is like that. Makes sense in theory but useless or just plain wrong for any practical application. History of science is full of theories that were airtight and seemed logical on paper but turned completely wrong when tested against real world.

I am basically saying that the Fundamentalist concept of hell makes universe seem like really small place with too many decent people tortured in hell for no good reason, too many civilizations created by people doing their best with little light they had that amounts to absolutely nothing in the eyes of God. Aren't there any other stories worth telling in this wast Universe except accept - Jesus - as- your - savior?

So yeah, tell me about all other creeds being 'subversive'. I am listening.
Articulate...
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Old 07-13-2010, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
28,575 posts, read 15,510,176 times
Reputation: 11453
Quote:
Originally Posted by python87 View Post
Well, I have tried (I am not saying I succeeded) to imagine how God might look at it all here: Why the party line justifications for hell don't really work . There weren't many responses.

Besides this tread is not primarily about God, it's about why is Universalism seen as subversive to Justice, but Fundamentalism isn't seen like that.
Simple answer (if I am understanding you) - all receive the same reward in universalism - they are in God's presence forever, regardless of their actions on earth, and their relationship status to God through Christ that is established while alive on earth. There is no distinction - therefore, justice seems to be absent.
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Old 07-13-2010, 03:40 PM
 
159 posts, read 150,281 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Simple answer (if I am understanding you) - all receive the same reward in universalism - they are in God's presence forever, regardless of their actions on earth, and their relationship status to God through Christ that is established while alive on earth. There is no distinction - therefore, justice seems to be absent.
Yes but still there is some kind of punishment (which can be quite lengthly) in Universalism. This, I think, is big improvement over eternal punishment for reasons unrelalted to good and evil. Yeah maybe Universalism can be seen as subversive too, (I am not Universalist) but it is obvious to me which is MORE subversive.
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Old 07-13-2010, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
28,575 posts, read 15,510,176 times
Reputation: 11453
Quote:
Originally Posted by python87 View Post
Yes but still there is some kind of punishment (which can be quite lengthly) in Universalism. This, I think, is big improvement over eternal punishment for reasons unrelalted to good and evil. Yeah maybe Universalism can be seen as subversive too, (I am not Universalist) but it is obvious to me which is MORE subversive.
If you go by the Bible - terms of a temporary punishment are not mentioned. Punishment is described as eternal - which those ascribing to universalism say is really not eternal.
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Old 07-13-2010, 05:41 PM
 
40,196 posts, read 26,826,705 times
Reputation: 6059
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
If you go by the Bible - terms of a temporary punishment are not mentioned. Punishment is described as eternal - which those ascribing to universalism say is really not eternal.
IT cannot be eternal and be consistent with "You reap what you sow." The same outcome for everyone is absurd. There are consequences . . . but they are NOT punishments and they will be largely self-inflicted by remorse and regret and shame over their blindness, callousness, and weakness . . . spiritual pain for their spiritual essence.
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Old 07-13-2010, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,826,543 times
Reputation: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by python87 View Post
A lot of people say universalism is subversive belief because it says Hitler and Stalin will end up in Heaven eventually. I am neither UR-er nor Fundamentalist so I have no horse in this race. However, I think the idea that everyone how didn't accept Jesus in this lifetime (and I know there are plenty of people believing exactly that on this forum) is far more subversive. Here's what I mean:

The thing is that, according to standard Fundamentalist theology it is essentially meaningless to make example of extreme criminals and mass murderers when by that theology almost everyone else (including most of their victims) is going to eternal hell. Yeah, Hitler is in hell, but so what? So is every single Jew who died in Holocaust. Such theology has nothing to do with good and evil and everything to do with accepting Jesus in this lifetime. That's the only way to judge worth of a man.

You can say want you want about UR-ers here, but they are saying that Hitler & Co are going to be punished trough many ages before being admitted to heaven. So they admit that who we are and what we do make plenty of difference. According to many Fundamentalists only action that at all matters on this Earth is accepting Jesus. This makes every mass murderer and every non-Christian victim of mass murderer basically the same in the eyes of God.

This essentially throws entire concept of good and evil out of the window. So if universalism is subversive, where does Fundamentalism falls? Why should anyone ever differentiate between honest non-believer and a monster? Was Hitler even wrong and why? God is supposed to have more fine-tuned sense of Justice than us, not less.

Only possible defense I have seen is that God does send a missionary to anyone who has 'positive volition' to hear gospel. This makes sense on paper (Communism made sense on paper, too) but simply doesn't work out in reality. A lot people (especially Catholic) view Socrates as pre-Christian martyr and it was Plato and Aristotle who influenced Augustine. And you are saying none of them would have accepted Jesus had he arrived a few centuries earlier?

Samurai, elite warriors of medieval Japan, who predate Christian missionaries by at least few centuries, lived by strict code of honor. Many compare them to medieval knights. These people definitely didn't 'love darkness more than light'. They followed rules they held sacred as best as they could. Are those of them who died before missionaries have reached Japan all in hell now?

And although many people 'reject' gospel, many more people whose parents are Christians accept Christ than those whose parents aren't. Accident of birth plays huge part.

This "God sends missionaries to anyone who would listen" sounds good in theory but has about as much evidence for working in practice as Communism. In fact most theology is like that. Makes sense in theory but useless or just plain wrong for any practical application. History of science is full of theories that were airtight and seemed logical on paper but turned completely wrong when tested against real world.

I am basically saying that the Fundamentalist concept of hell makes universe seem like really small place with too many decent people tortured in hell for no good reason, too many civilizations created by people doing their best with little light they had that amounts to absolutely nothing in the eyes of God. Aren't there any other stories worth telling in this wast Universe except accept - Jesus - as- your - savior?

So yeah, tell me about all other creeds being 'subversive'. I am listening.
Hi Pyhton87. There is nobody that is in Heaven right now but He would came down - the Christ. So there is still a resurrection to take place of what is called the "first fruits". So there is nobody in hell (unless you are thinking of the word "hell" as translated from hades which means a place below the surface).

As a form of universalism, I believe that we cannot be saved "no matter what you do" but on the contrary that we must be saved by doing as Christ has done. Or in other words I believe that Jesus Christ has the copyright on all GOOD works that anyone can do. Even if you do something that is GOOD then it is still credit to Christ. We are all just robbing Him of that glory. But hitler, Stalin, and the rest shall eventually be saved. For God is not UNABLE to remove their sins.

Think about the doctrine of Eternal punishment/torment. It essentially teaches that Jesus is making a place for sinners (hell) in which sin shall have dominion over its subjects (because they will remain sinners forever). That is completely contrary to the purpose of Christ which was to destroy the works of the devil which is SIN. So eventually there can no longer be sin ANYWHERE - including some imaginary place of eternal torment.

Essentially, the murder, the molester, the thief, the lover, the friend, the wife, the child, are all playing out their lives according to the plan God has set out and He is in complete control - full well knowing that the most dreadful sins will eventually be washed clean from every sinner.

This is truely a God of Power and Control and full of Mercy and Love. I hope God brings you to see Him that way.

Peace,

Paul
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