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Old 07-14-2010, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
8,399 posts, read 9,143,473 times
Reputation: 13036

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
And exactly how does this mean that they oppose these same people accepting Christ while they are alive?That is what you have accused UR of.
UR people are not opposed-we know that. Strawman.

UR teaches that you don't need to accept Christ in this life to be reconciled to God

 
Old 07-14-2010, 10:19 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,558,313 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
UR people are not opposed-we know that. Strawman.

UR teaches that you don't need to accept Christ in this life to be reconciled to God

You evidently didn't read Finn.It is no strawman on my part.I quoted him exactly.Read it.It's even bolded for your convenience.

As for the rest,you are correct.UR sees God being capable and gracious enough to continue to work His love towards unreconciled sinners after the death of the physical body.

Last edited by lifertexan; 07-14-2010 at 10:35 AM..
 
Old 07-14-2010, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,052 posts, read 34,335,398 times
Reputation: 10466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
UR people are not opposed-we know that. Strawman.

UR teaches that you don't need to accept Christ in this life to be reconciled to God

Thanks. I am done talking to people who argue only for the sake of arguing. By promoting their belief of post mortem forced/automatic salvation, they are talking people out of accepting Christ.
 
Old 07-14-2010, 10:40 AM
 
40,066 posts, read 26,739,576 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I agree. Telling people that they don't need to accept Christ in this life to be reconciled to God is a dangerous thing.
It is a good thing NOBODY is SAYING THAT!!! You mistakenly believe this puny physical life is all there is to our LIFE . . . but our consciousness is ETERNAL. It is PURE ENERGY and cannot be destroyed.


But it can be resonant or dissonant with God's consciousness . . . which is the universal field that establishes our reality and is the Source energy for all that exists. Our task is to make it resonant . . . not dissonant through the perfection of Jesus (sooner rather than later . . . but it must happen).
 
Old 07-14-2010, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 908,581 times
Reputation: 295
I think perhaps you misunderstand our message in that you misunderstand WHO we are posting to when we talk about how all are saved (from death) even those who do NOT accept Christ during this lifetime that we see and perceive.

I would never tell a non believer that it does NOT MATTER if they do not accept Christ now. Accepting Christ now will bring much to your life NOW. Those that believe by faith without seeing are ESPECIALLY blessed. But those that CANNOT see the need to believe in Jesus, who don't believe there is anything outside of what we know NOW, who believe (somehow, I don't understand this faith) that we are here by accident and that there is no real plan for our lives etc, are not going to believe until God opens their eyes. The Bible says repeatedly that no one can come to the Father unless he drags them (usually translated draw to lessen the force), that we do not choose Christ but that He chooses us. etc. So whether you or us (or whomsoever) takes them the gospel message in WHATEVER form they deliver it, many will NOT believe UNTIL the Holy spirit moves upon their spirit and that is when they believe.

I can't speak for everyone here, but the reason why I defend universalism so vigorously on these boards, is more for the Christian, who like me, worried, fretted and mourned for a beloved family member or friend, or even for a neighbor, who professed faith in Buddhism, Islam, or no faith in any type of God. If they believe that they are now or sometime after 'Judgment Day' will suffer indescribable pain and suffering, it causes many to weep and be depressed and many cannot enjoy the blessings and life which the Spirit has waiting for us. This to me, is only partially good news, that I, me, myself am saved but I won't be seeing my mother, brother, aunt or uncle, best friend, etc in that happy foreverland. So we offer the hope (the reality from our perspective) that God is only workiing with a firstfruits in these ages but there is an age to come where ALL of his children will some day see who God is through Christ, will see how much He loves us by His plan of redemption. This then becomes the TOTAL good news for all who believe in the goodness and grace of God, and yet it doesn't preach some pie in the sky doctrine either that promises and winks at sin or that it doesn't matter how one lives. Besides there are many Christians in jail who have done heinous acts and many atheists/agnostics living good and moral lives all around us.

I (and probably most other UR's) just want to help change the message. From one of an OFFER of salvation, to assurance of salvation. There are special rewards for those who live by faith, who walk by the Spirit NOW. So why do you think that we encourage and pat people on the back and say, it's ok, no need to worry about believing in God. You CAN'T MAKE yourself believe in something. You might accept something as true that you have been taught all your life, but until it becomes a factor in your life you aren't really 'believing' it.

Trying to get someone to change their mind about serving one God who has one set of rules and one standard with punishment for non compliance, to serve another God with a foreign concept of rules and still punishment isn't all that much incentive. Trying to convince someone who doesn't believe there is anything beyond the visible life and death of this world will fall on deaf ears until the Holy Spirit opens their eyes and ears. But we want to lighten up the hearts of current believers to have complete hope and trust in our loving God and Father.

As far as laughing off a few hundred or thousand years of refinement for several years of riotous living? We humans hate waiting a year for our next vacation from the every day grind we go to. We anticipate every holiday. What makes ANYONE think that having to endure 1000 years under the dominion of people who you laughed at during a former age is NOTHING? That would be VERY difficult. I am not saying I know how long or what manner the refinement takes. It is most likely different for each person, depending upon their stubbornness, etc.

But as far as being FORCED to believe in God? That's crazy. Once you come before His throne, there is no point in NOT believing. We don't physically see it now so many can deny it. But once you are there, denial would be laughable. When His love hits you full force in the face and heart, I don't see how you can help but fall on your knees and realize what you had run from.

But when Thomas would not believe until he actually saw Jesus, Jesus did NOT rebuke him for his lack of faith, in fact if I recall he called Thomas blessed. But those who believe WITHOUT seeing, merely by faith, will receive special blessings.

Anyway, I've tried to say this on other threads. I believe the gospel message would at least be considered more viable when presented as God having already forgiven us through Christ. In my view, it wouldn't increase the number of converts because God has already decreed how many and who will receive the gospel in THESE ages, but I do believe it can bring more joy, more love and trust, more comfort to those who have lost people and have worried about their final disposition.

Sorry for the length. I tend to say things with too many words.

Peace and joy to all of the forum readers/posters today.
 
Old 07-14-2010, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
8,399 posts, read 9,143,473 times
Reputation: 13036
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
I
I can't speak for everyone here, but the reason why I defend universalism so vigorously on these boards, is more for the Christian, who like me, worried, fretted and mourned for a beloved family member or friend, or even for a neighbor, who professed faith in Buddhism, Islam, or no faith in any type of God. If they believe that they are now or sometime after 'Judgment Day' will suffer indescribable pain and suffering, it causes many to weep and be depressed and many cannot enjoy the blessings and life which the Spirit has waiting for us. This to me, is only partially good news, that I, me, myself am saved but I won't be seeing my mother, brother, aunt or uncle, best friend, etc in that happy foreverland. .
Yes, I can understand the appeal of UR.
 
Old 07-14-2010, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,671,040 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
I think perhaps you misunderstand our message in that you misunderstand WHO we are posting to when we talk about how all are saved (from death) even those who do NOT accept Christ during this lifetime that we see and perceive.

I would never tell a non believer that it does NOT MATTER if they do not accept Christ now. Accepting Christ now will bring much to your life NOW. Those that believe by faith without seeing are ESPECIALLY blessed. But those that CANNOT see the need to believe in Jesus, who don't believe there is anything outside of what we know NOW, who believe (somehow, I don't understand this faith) that we are here by accident and that there is no real plan for our lives etc, are not going to believe until God opens their eyes. The Bible says repeatedly that no one can come to the Father unless he drags them (usually translated draw to lessen the force), that we do not choose Christ but that He chooses us. etc. So whether you or us (or whomsoever) takes them the gospel message in WHATEVER form they deliver it, many will NOT believe UNTIL the Holy spirit moves upon their spirit and that is when they believe.

I can't speak for everyone here, but the reason why I defend universalism so vigorously on these boards, is more for the Christian, who like me, worried, fretted and mourned for a beloved family member or friend, or even for a neighbor, who professed faith in Buddhism, Islam, or no faith in any type of God. If they believe that they are now or sometime after 'Judgment Day' will suffer indescribable pain and suffering, it causes many to weep and be depressed and many cannot enjoy the blessings and life which the Spirit has waiting for us. This to me, is only partially good news, that I, me, myself am saved but I won't be seeing my mother, brother, aunt or uncle, best friend, etc in that happy foreverland. So we offer the hope (the reality from our perspective) that God is only workiing with a firstfruits in these ages but there is an age to come where ALL of his children will some day see who God is through Christ, will see how much He loves us by His plan of redemption. This then becomes the TOTAL good news for all who believe in the goodness and grace of God, and yet it doesn't preach some pie in the sky doctrine either that promises and winks at sin or that it doesn't matter how one lives. Besides there are many Christians in jail who have done heinous acts and many atheists/agnostics living good and moral lives all around us.

I (and probably most other UR's) just want to help change the message. From one of an OFFER of salvation, to assurance of salvation. There are special rewards for those who live by faith, who walk by the Spirit NOW. So why do you think that we encourage and pat people on the back and say, it's ok, no need to worry about believing in God. You CAN'T MAKE yourself believe in something. You might accept something as true that you have been taught all your life, but until it becomes a factor in your life you aren't really 'believing' it.

Trying to get someone to change their mind about serving one God who has one set of rules and one standard with punishment for non compliance, to serve another God with a foreign concept of rules and still punishment isn't all that much incentive. Trying to convince someone who doesn't believe there is anything beyond the visible life and death of this world will fall on deaf ears until the Holy Spirit opens their eyes and ears. But we want to lighten up the hearts of current believers to have complete hope and trust in our loving God and Father.

As far as laughing off a few hundred or thousand years of refinement for several years of riotous living? We humans hate waiting a year for our next vacation from the every day grind we go to. We anticipate every holiday. What makes ANYONE think that having to endure 1000 years under the dominion of people who you laughed at during a former age is NOTHING? That would be VERY difficult. I am not saying I know how long or what manner the refinement takes. It is most likely different for each person, depending upon their stubbornness, etc.

But as far as being FORCED to believe in God? That's crazy. Once you come before His throne, there is no point in NOT believing. We don't physically see it now so many can deny it. But once you are there, denial would be laughable. When His love hits you full force in the face and heart, I don't see how you can help but fall on your knees and realize what you had run from.

But when Thomas would not believe until he actually saw Jesus, Jesus did NOT rebuke him for his lack of faith, in fact if I recall he called Thomas blessed. But those who believe WITHOUT seeing, merely by faith, will receive special blessings.

Anyway, I've tried to say this on other threads. I believe the gospel message would at least be considered more viable when presented as God having already forgiven us through Christ. In my view, it wouldn't increase the number of converts because God has already decreed how many and who will receive the gospel in THESE ages, but I do believe it can bring more joy, more love and trust, more comfort to those who have lost people and have worried about their final disposition.

Sorry for the length. I tend to say things with too many words.

Peace and joy to all of the forum readers/posters today.
Beautifully said! I am all outta reps for you so...
 
Old 07-14-2010, 11:37 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,615,939 times
Reputation: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You know full well what I am talking about, so don't pretend you don't understand. You believe people will be forced to accept Christ AFTER THEIR DEATHS.
Didn't I just answer this same thing you said here YESTERDAY? Did you forget already?

Well I suppose it depends what you mean by 'forced to accept' - like phaze says there is such a thing as a positive force.

But to answer your point, NO I don't think people will be forced against their will to accept Christ after death.
 
Old 07-14-2010, 11:40 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,838,708 times
Reputation: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Yes, I can understand the appeal of UR.


Why shouldn't there be an appeal for something you believe?
 
Old 07-14-2010, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,052 posts, read 34,335,398 times
Reputation: 10466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Yes, I can understand the appeal of UR.
Yes, it would be great if it were true and biblical, but as the poster herself says "so we offer the hope ". They offer this belief in order to comfort themselves and others.

To me it is same as a doctor not telling his patient that the patient has cancer, because it is not what he wants to hear. However, by not telling the truth he deprives his patient the only chance to live, which would be aggressive treatment.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 07-14-2010 at 11:59 AM..
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