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Old 07-14-2010, 03:25 PM
 
40,168 posts, read 26,789,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
I think perhaps you misunderstand our message in that you misunderstand WHO we are posting to when we talk about how all are saved (from death) even those who do NOT accept Christ during this lifetime that we see and perceive.

I would never tell a non believer that it does NOT MATTER if they do not accept Christ now. Accepting Christ now will bring much to your life NOW. Those that believe by faith without seeing are ESPECIALLY blessed. But those that CANNOT see the need to believe in Jesus, who don't believe there is anything outside of what we know NOW, who believe (somehow, I don't understand this faith) that we are here by accident and that there is no real plan for our lives etc, are not going to believe until God opens their eyes. The Bible says repeatedly that no one can come to the Father unless he drags them (usually translated draw to lessen the force), that we do not choose Christ but that He chooses us. etc. So whether you or us (or whomsoever) takes them the gospel message in WHATEVER form they deliver it, many will NOT believe UNTIL the Holy spirit moves upon their spirit and that is when they believe.

I can't speak for everyone here, but the reason why I defend universalism so vigorously on these boards, is more for the Christian, who like me, worried, fretted and mourned for a beloved family member or friend, or even for a neighbor, who professed faith in Buddhism, Islam, or no faith in any type of God. If they believe that they are now or sometime after 'Judgment Day' will suffer indescribable pain and suffering, it causes many to weep and be depressed and many cannot enjoy the blessings and life which the Spirit has waiting for us. This to me, is only partially good news, that I, me, myself am saved but I won't be seeing my mother, brother, aunt or uncle, best friend, etc in that happy foreverland. So we offer the hope (the reality from our perspective) that God is only workiing with a firstfruits in these ages but there is an age to come where ALL of his children will some day see who God is through Christ, will see how much He loves us by His plan of redemption. This then becomes the TOTAL good news for all who believe in the goodness and grace of God, and yet it doesn't preach some pie in the sky doctrine either that promises and winks at sin or that it doesn't matter how one lives. Besides there are many Christians in jail who have done heinous acts and many atheists/agnostics living good and moral lives all around us.

I (and probably most other UR's) just want to help change the message. From one of an OFFER of salvation, to assurance of salvation. There are special rewards for those who live by faith, who walk by the Spirit NOW. So why do you think that we encourage and pat people on the back and say, it's ok, no need to worry about believing in God. You CAN'T MAKE yourself believe in something. You might accept something as true that you have been taught all your life, but until it becomes a factor in your life you aren't really 'believing' it.

Trying to get someone to change their mind about serving one God who has one set of rules and one standard with punishment for non compliance, to serve another God with a foreign concept of rules and still punishment isn't all that much incentive. Trying to convince someone who doesn't believe there is anything beyond the visible life and death of this world will fall on deaf ears until the Holy Spirit opens their eyes and ears. But we want to lighten up the hearts of current believers to have complete hope and trust in our loving God and Father.

As far as laughing off a few hundred or thousand years of refinement for several years of riotous living? We humans hate waiting a year for our next vacation from the every day grind we go to. We anticipate every holiday. What makes ANYONE think that having to endure 1000 years under the dominion of people who you laughed at during a former age is NOTHING? That would be VERY difficult. I am not saying I know how long or what manner the refinement takes. It is most likely different for each person, depending upon their stubbornness, etc.

But as far as being FORCED to believe in God? That's crazy. Once you come before His throne, there is no point in NOT believing. We don't physically see it now so many can deny it. But once you are there, denial would be laughable. When His love hits you full force in the face and heart, I don't see how you can help but fall on your knees and realize what you had run from.

But when Thomas would not believe until he actually saw Jesus, Jesus did NOT rebuke him for his lack of faith, in fact if I recall he called Thomas blessed. But those who believe WITHOUT seeing, merely by faith, will receive special blessings.

Anyway, I've tried to say this on other threads. I believe the gospel message would at least be considered more viable when presented as God having already forgiven us through Christ. In my view, it wouldn't increase the number of converts because God has already decreed how many and who will receive the gospel in THESE ages, but I do believe it can bring more joy, more love and trust, more comfort to those who have lost people and have worried about their final disposition.

Sorry for the length. I tend to say things with too many words.

Peace and joy to all of the forum readers/posters today.
This is the best post in this entire thread (and there are many great posts by URs in this thread) . . . but I cannot rep you . . . so

 
Old 07-14-2010, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
21,188 posts, read 21,032,415 times
Reputation: 22134
Okay - so I feel the need to add another 2 cents. First of all, I just can't wrap my head around a God that would create all of us to be so different - and then demand that we all think in exactly the same way or we are going to be tormented for all eternity. That just makes absolutely NO SENSE to me! What a cruel, cruel thing that would be. I'm not a Heatherist because I HATE God or because I REFUSE God - I simply don't think he exists - not in the way that many believe he does, anyway. I know that those who believe think that they KNOW they are right. I'm not saying that you are wrong - I'm just saying that I don't think we KNOW everything. Maybe Christianity is right. Maybe Islam is right. Maybe Buddhism is right. Maybe all are right. Mayabe none are right. It's not that I'm afraid of which one to pick - I just follow my heart. And no organized religion resonates with me (I'm using your turn of phrase, Katzpur!) I just don't think that something would create all of this beauty and DIVERSITY - only to punish everyone for who they are. It doesn't make any sense to me.

And on another note - if, after I die, God and Jesus are waiting for me - and they tell me how much they love me - do you really think I would REFUSE them? Do you really think I would not love them back? If there is a God - and he really is all loving and wonderful - I would think - just being in his mere presence would fill you with love and gratefulness. If this does exist - I think that our true souls would come out and we would be filled with love. It wouldn't be possible to NOT believe. However, I still don't believe in an afterlife. Like I said, I could be wrong - but so could everyone else! We just don't know. I haven't seen any postcards from anyone from Heaven or Hell - so I'm sorry if I just don't understand how people can be soooo sure in their existence - or their exact characteristics.
I know the extreme people will find what I say offensive and will try to convert me - but the way I see it, we all believe different things for a reason. And not matter how often you try to tell me that what you believe is THE TRUTH - I will still only see it as YOUR truth. I just don't think God would want people going around calling other people wicked and evil. How horrible is that! I NEVER call people wicked or evil - even if I disagree with everything that they stand for. I try to see the good in people and not judge them because they don't think my version of the truth is the right one. To be honest - I'm probably the only that beleives exactly what I believe - and I'm perfectly fine with that.
 
Old 07-14-2010, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,169 posts, read 34,407,807 times
Reputation: 10510
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdrop93 View Post
Okay - so I feel the need to add another 2 cents. First of all, I just can't wrap my head around a God that would create all of us to be so different - and then demand that we all think in exactly the same way or we are going to be tormented for all eternity.
It is an insult to God to even suggest that you might one day comprehend his reasoning. Might as well believe what he has revealed through the Bible and take his word for it. People tend to think they can figure out God and if something in the Bible doesn't add up, then they start tweaking the Bible until it fits their "logic". It is a moot point though since you don't believe God even exists.
 
Old 07-14-2010, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
21,188 posts, read 21,032,415 times
Reputation: 22134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It is an insult to God to even suggest that you might one day comprehend his reasoning. Might as well believe what he has revealed through the Bible and take his word for it. People tend to think they can figure out God and if something in the Bible doesn't add up, then they start tweaking the Bible until it fits their "logic". It is a moot point though since you don't believe God even exists.
I always find this type of logic very confusing... If nobody can comprehend his reasoning - then nobody really knows how he thinks - which means we shouldn't listen to anyone's interpretation of who or what God is. Which to be honest - makes sense to me. However - you find my thinking insulting to God - yet you think that you DO know how he feels about everything. I dunno - just doesn't make sense to me. Oh well - to each their own.
Personally, I understand that I have offended you in some way - but I just can't believe in my heart that something who would create this magnificent world would have created us with the intent to torture us for being who we are. I'm not trying to be insulting -just honest.
 
Old 07-14-2010, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,575 posts, read 21,736,183 times
Reputation: 18151
mod note:

The op is asking about "reconcilliation"

Many off topic posts and sidebar arguements were deleted in this thread..One more post about hell and this one is closed..Thank you for your cooperation..OK?

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Old 07-14-2010, 07:19 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 12,952,026 times
Reputation: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdrop93 View Post
Honestly, I'm a bit confused as to why you would think this way. The UR folk are Christians. They believe in Jesus. Shouldn't that make you happy?

For the record - I'm not a Christian. I know the UR folk believe I will be saved. I know that you don't. I know many try to scare me with all the Hell talk - and I do understand that it is supposedly out of love (although it RARELY comes off that way). Personally, I don't believe in an afterlife. So - it really makes no difference to me one way or another - you can believe I'm going to Hell - I'm okay with it.

You aren't going to convince the UR folk to give up their beliefs. They seem to be inspired by love and compassion and I don't think you can change that.

You aren't going to convince me to believe in something I don't by trying to scare me with Hell.

So... what's the point?

And for the record - although I'm not a Christian and I don't believe in an afterlife - I still don't take pleasure in killing, raping, stealing, lying, or cheating. I still take pleasure in love and understanding and kindness. Just because I don't believe in an afterlife - that doesn't mean I think I have a free pass to be a horrible person. I have a conscience. I have a mind. I have a heart.
Beautifully put!
 
Old 07-14-2010, 08:33 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,180,854 times
Reputation: 1308
Do you know why I say what I do....ever remember this quote:
Does God care more for the sparrow than those set for ET ?
It's not loving telling somebody that God "winks" at unbelief, resulting in giving an unbeliever false security.
"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day" John 12:48...Jesus

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Dewdrop93 admits:
"For the record - I'm not a Christian....Personally, I don't believe in an afterlife.

So - it really makes no difference to me one way or another - you can believe I'm going to Hell - I'm okay with it. .. I know the UR folk believe I will be saved."
  • Not a christian
  • don't believe in an afterlife
  • you can believe I'm going to Hell - I'm okay with it.
"I know the UR folk believe I will be saved." ............. On what basis do the "UR folk believe I will be saved." ? .... certianly not using the truth of Jesus words.

How is telling somebody that God doesn't hold accountable unbelief, resulting in giving an unbeliever false security in keeping with scriptures?

"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day" ...Jesus John 12:48

"When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,'
and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways,
that wicked man will die for his sin,
and I will hold you accountable for his blood." Ezekiel 33:8

"Not a christian...don't believe in an afterlife....
the "UR folk believe I will be saved."
compared that with God's view
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Last edited by twin.spin; 07-14-2010 at 08:56 PM.. Reason: incorrect link
 
Old 07-14-2010, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,680,231 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Do you know why I say what I do....ever remember this quote:
Does God care more for the sparrow than those set for ET ?
It's not loving telling somebody that God "winks" at unbelief, resulting in giving an unbeliever false security.
"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day" John 12:48...Jesus

Dewdrop93 admits:
"For the record - I'm not a Christian....Personally, I don't believe in an afterlife. So - it really makes no difference to me one way or another - you can believe I'm going to Hell - I'm okay with it.

.. I know the UR folk believe I will be saved."
  • Not a christian
  • don't believe in an afterlife
  • you can believe I'm going to Hell - I'm okay with it.
"I know the UR folk believe I will be saved." .............

and that's "not loving telling somebody that God "winks" at unbelief, resulting in giving an unbeliever false security."

"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day" John 12:48

"When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,'
and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways,
that wicked man will die for his sin,
and I will hold you accountable for his blood." Ezekiel 33:8
The same could be said of an ETer... except... at the end it would not say "I know the UR folk believe I will be saved" but would be "I know the ET fold say I will burn in hell." It makes no difference which one, the unbeliever is still gonna be okay with it because they don't believe in either way....

The problem with security? Isn't that what the problem is? Eters always have to wonder if they indeed did make the cut... in UR there is security... you know everyone is saved so you treat them equally.

Ur does give security and it is not false. I haven't had one single doubt since I began to truly understand UR.

Still... an unbeliever will not recognize hell no matter how much you propose they will go there. The after life is anyone's guess.
 
Old 07-14-2010, 08:54 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,649 posts, read 30,276,065 times
Reputation: 30189
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The same could be said of an ETer... except... at the end it would not say "I know the UR folk believe I will be saved" but would be "I know the ET fold say I will burn in hell." It makes no difference which one, the unbeliever is still gonna be okay with it because they don't believe in either way....

The problem with security? Isn't that what the problem is? Eters always have to wonder if they indeed did make the cut... in UR there is security... you know everyone is saved so you treat them equally.

Ur does give security and it is not false. I haven't had one single doubt since I began to truly understand UR.

Still... an unbeliever will not recognize hell no matter how much you propose they will go there. The after life is anyone's guess.
No we do not have to wonder if we "made the cut" we can KNOW we are saved forever. UR gives a false security that everyone will saved and that is not true, the Bible does NOT teach that.
 
Old 07-14-2010, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,680,231 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
No we do not have to wonder if we "made the cut" we can KNOW we are saved forever. UR gives a false security that everyone will saved and that is not true, the Bible does NOT teach that.
Good that you brought that up... HOW DO you know you are saved forever?

No one has actually answered that.

Not one thing you can do NOW will change what was done on the Cross so either all people are affected by the cross (saved) or not...

How do you know YOU are saved? Belief?

Belief doesn't change what was done on the cross? Does it?
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