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Old 07-16-2010, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 864,760 times
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Of the various things that the English "hell" word has been pasted over, Paul, the writer of two-thirds of the New Testament, NEVER mentioned any of them, not even once!

[15] Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, [16] That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. [17] I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. [18] For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, [19] Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. (Romans 15:15-19, AV)

[29] And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ. (Romans 15:29, AV)
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Old 07-16-2010, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Paul mentioned eternal destruction on several occasions
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Old 07-16-2010, 07:42 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,399,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Paul mentioned eternal destruction on several occasions
scripture please?
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Old 07-16-2010, 08:56 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,770,564 times
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Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow
Paul said a lot of things, but nothing about a literal hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Oh really...care to elaborate?
That would be unnecessary since Paul said a lot of things, but nothing about a literal hell.
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Old 07-16-2010, 10:45 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,164,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
About the Thomas thing, I'm not so sure about what you said. Can you be a true believer and not believe in Christ's resurrection? I would think most would say no, so that puts Thomas in a quandary. He believed in His resurrection only by sight, not faith.

We know Paul's conversion was abnormal because God doesn't generally go around revealing himself by sight. But God is no respecter of persons, so IMO, I don't think he would give one person a huge benefit of being saved by sight, and then when other people die and believe by sight, they are sent to burn in hell.

Paul said a lot of things, but nothing about a literal hell.
About Thomas.

Here is what we do know.

1. To be refered as a disciple, the person need to "put their faith in him" John 2:11.

2. Thomas became a disciple sometime between John 2:1-12 and Mark 3:7
"The 1st miracle" - turning water to wine - (considered the beginning of Jesus' ministry) John 2:1-12

"Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the lake, and a large crowd from Galilee followed." Mark 3:7
Thomas being called as an Apostle Mark 3:13-15 = faith

"Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him."

Thomas was given the authority to drive out demons ... Mark 3:13-15
** Only believers can drive out demons ... because a "house divide amoung itself, can not stand"

Thomas was ready to die for him John 11:16

By this we can conclude:
Thomas was a believer of Jesus who doubted the stories told of the ressurection, not that he didn't believe Jesus. There was no one apostle that didn't have their doubts \ lack of faith prior to pentecost.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Paul ///////////////////////

Paul was a heathen...a persecuting Jewish Pharisee ... a Pharisee's pharisee (Paul's own description)

Paul admitted that Israel tried to please God through the law Romans 11:7 .. which he was a religious leader of.

Paul's conversion was very much indeed abnormal.... and we as the "clay" can't say to the potter what he can do and can't do.
____________________________________________________ _
Can you please explain this later portion:

"I don't think he would give one person a huge benefit of being saved by sight, and then when other people die and believe by sight, they are sent to burn in hell."

___________________________________________

"Paul said a lot of things, but nothing about a literal hell" ....

Can I ask you...is our future heavenly dwelling literal?
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Old 07-16-2010, 11:22 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 864,760 times
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Of the words that our Englishman's "hell" obscures, the only one Jesus ever spoke of is Gehenna, or, the valley of Hinnom. There are twelve (12) occurrences of that word, though by discounting repetitive parallels in other gospels, only eight (8) times in the gospel record does Jesus speak of Ge'ena. It was an active garbage dump in His day.

All along the Hinnom Valley, what had been the pleasure gardens, or paradises back of the palaces of Solomon and the nobility became the place the priests of Baal practiced ritual sexual immorality as worship. Here too was Tophet where child sacrifice to Moloch was performed. King Josiah, by using the wood from this valley to burn the wicked priests and spreading their bones and ashes over it rendered it ceremonially unclean. It became a garbage dump where criminal's corpses were burned.

Consider this reference to Gehenna from the great prophet Jeremiah: "[33] And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching [them], yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction. [34] But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it. [35] And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." (Jer 32:33-35, AV)

How much more abominable than these temporal flames is it to proclaim The Lord Jesus one worse than Moloch, and you readily consign your sons and daughters to his eternal flames?! ABOMINATION!!!
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Old 07-16-2010, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 864,760 times
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Paul's conversion experience was NOT abnormal! He says it is a pattern for those who come to faith since him:

[15] This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. [16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. (1 Tim 1:15-16, AV)
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Old 07-16-2010, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,489,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
Paul's conversion experience was NOT abnormal! He says it is a pattern for those who come to faith since him:

[15] This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. [16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. (1 Tim 1:15-16, AV)
Well, that's good to know. I went through something fairly terrifying about 9 months ago, which I would NOT EVER want to go through again. The worst of it lasted about a week and a half. When it was over the verse that talks about being thrown into prison for ten days kept coming to mind. (Revelation 2:10: Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days) I did feel rather like I was under lock and key around something very dark.

I literally felt locked up in a black hole with my life continually flashing before my eyes (no, I wasn't on any meds or drugs. Just struggling, spiritually, and very angry). I felt completely separated from anything alive and vibrant. Just complete and utter darkness and hopelessness. And just me, forever. I couldn't eat, sleep, or do anything but be led around, kind of like Paul. The terror was making me sick. I honestly wouldn't wish that experience on my worst enemy.

When I talked about it with my mom she said she had been through something similar before, but she died before I could really understand what happened to her.

I don't know if this is a normal conversion experience, but I'm certainly converted. I can't seem to go back to how things were before, and I'm crazily gulping down whatever pieces of truth I can get. Nothing looks or feels the same anymore.

Paul also made a pretty wild reversal, so it just makes me wonder what it was he went through to make such an enormous transformation from a guy who loved watching followers of Christ die brutal deaths to a loyal and passionate follower of Christ himself.

He was shipwrecked, stoned, beaten, jailed and much more, but he just kept going. That chapter he wrote on the reconciliation of all things pretty much clears it up for me. That was one excited guy.

Last edited by herefornow; 07-17-2010 at 01:14 AM..
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Old 07-17-2010, 04:19 AM
 
Location: US
27,953 posts, read 15,039,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
That's pretty harsh and actually kind of ridiculous to say when speaking of God and His plan for ALL. Shakespeare has nothing to do with the fact that ALL will be reconciled to God and you're implying that unbelievers are just puppets and trash to be thrown away when all is said and done. What a sad outlook and THANK GOD it's not true.
Ilene, how do you reconcile the God of the Old Tetament with the God of The New Testament?...
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Old 07-17-2010, 04:23 AM
 
Location: US
27,953 posts, read 15,039,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Richard ... why don't you follow the link i gave ... ? Look, go to this link and do a word search ... Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon


And the Thayers definition...


The Great Confession
It is interesting how Strong's has one definition and then all of a sudden there is more to the definition...I take everything i read on the NET with a grain of salt...until i do further reseach to affirm it's validity...
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