U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-17-2010, 05:09 AM
 
Location: US
27,998 posts, read 15,082,761 times
Reputation: 1754

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Well, that's good to know. I went through something fairly terrifying about 9 months ago, which I would NOT EVER want to go through again. The worst of it lasted about a week and a half. When it was over the verse that talks about being thrown into prison for ten days kept coming to mind. (Revelation 2:10: Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days) I did feel rather like I was under lock and key around something very dark.

I literally felt locked up in a black hole with my life continually flashing before my eyes (no, I wasn't on any meds or drugs. Just struggling, spiritually, and very angry). I felt completely separated from anything alive and vibrant. Just complete and utter darkness and hopelessness. And just me, forever. I couldn't eat, sleep, or do anything but be led around, kind of like Paul. The terror was making me sick. I honestly wouldn't wish that experience on my worst enemy.

When I talked about it with my mom she said she had been through something similar before, but she died before I could really understand what happened to her.

I don't know if this is a normal conversion experience, but I'm certainly converted. I can't seem to go back to how things were before, and I'm crazily gulping down whatever pieces of truth I can get. Nothing looks or feels the same anymore.

Paul also made a pretty wild reversal, so it just makes me wonder what it was he went through to make such an enormous transformation from a guy who loved watching followers of Christ die brutal deaths to a loyal and passionate follower of Christ himself.

He was shipwrecked, stoned, beaten, jailed and much more, but he just kept going. That chapter he wrote on the reconciliation of all things pretty much clears it up for me. That was one excited guy.
What chapter is that?...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-17-2010, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,913 posts, read 4,238,069 times
Reputation: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Presby View Post
The Lord God has ordained that the only way a man can pleased Him on earth is by faith. Thus if a believer bow down and confess that Jesus is Lord and Saviour on earth without seeing Him in His glorified state, He is pleased and gives the gift of eternal life to the believer.

When the unbeliever meets the Lord Jesus at the Great White Throne, the Lord will supernaturally open the unbeliever’s eyes. The unbeliever’s would have thus bow down and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord by SIGHT. This does not please the Lord (For without faith, it is impossible to please Him) and hence He will not forgive nor save the unbeliever.

The unbeliever will have to suffer for his sins which is the second death in the Lake of Fire. For the wages of sin is death.
Than you are saying Thomas who refused to beleive until he saw and touched Jesus is eternally tormented.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2010, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,913 posts, read 4,238,069 times
Reputation: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
lol...I've read a lot of your posts...
LOL and my logic left you speachless, enough said
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2010, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,913 posts, read 4,238,069 times
Reputation: 402
Quote:
Thomas was a believer of Jesus who doubted the stories told of the ressurection, not that he didn't believe Jesus. There was no one apostle that didn't have their doubts \ lack of faith prior to pentecost.



So Thomas was a believer in Jesus.

By that reasoning if an atheist believes in a historical Jesus then he too is saved.

Thomas simply did not have faith in the resurrected Christ until he saw and touched.

John 20:29
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Believing unto salvation (which is what this is about) requires that a person believes that God raised Jesus from the dead. And Thomas did not believe until he saw and touched Jesus.

Romans 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

So just like Thomas who refused to believe in the resurrected Christ until he saw Him, many people will believe in Him only after they see Him.

So if those who must see in order to believe cannot or are not saved then neither is Thomas.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2010, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,913 posts, read 4,238,069 times
Reputation: 402
Quote:
The Lord God has ordained that the only way a man can pleased Him on earth is by faith. Thus if a believer bow down and confess that Jesus is Lord and Saviour on earth without seeing Him in His glorified state, He is pleased and gives the gift of eternal life to the believer.

When the unbeliever meets the Lord Jesus at the Great White Throne, the Lord will supernaturally open the unbeliever’s eyes. The unbeliever’s would have thus bow down and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord by SIGHT. This does not please the Lord (For without faith, it is impossible to please Him) and hence He will not forgive nor save the unbeliever.

The unbeliever will have to suffer for his sins which is the second death in the Lake of Fire. For the wages of sin is death.




Quote:

It is nice to see someone using Systematic Theology to reason out scripture in logical Truth...




This is what you call logic? Tis no wonder my logic fails you.

If people cannot be saved after they have seen the resurrected Christ than neither was Thomas because He did not believe UNTIL he saw, for one must believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the DEAD in order to be saved.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2010, 08:30 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,474,139 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post


So Thomas was a believer in Jesus.

By that reasoning if an atheist believes in a historical Jesus then he too is saved.

Thomas simply did not have faith in the resurrected Christ until he saw and touched.

John 20:29
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Believing unto salvation (which is what this is about) requires that a person believes that God raised Jesus from the dead. And Thomas did not believe until he saw and touched Jesus.

Romans 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

So just like Thomas who refused to believe in the resurrected Christ until he saw Him, many people will believe in Him only after they see Him.

So if those who must see in order to believe cannot or are not saved then neither is Thomas.
There is a huge difference in what you are trying to convey.

Thomas KNEW Jesus, loved Him, and served God with all he was.

He didn't know what to believe about the resurrection, but he had FAITH in God.

Believing in the resurrection is not the same as believing in Jesus. I don't even know how you can compare the 2.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me(RESURRECTED), thou hast believed(IN THE RESURRECTION): blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Does it say anything in here about being an atheist? It says blessed are they who have FAITH, if you cannot read into what He is saying. Belief into the unseen is what faith is.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So, the resurrection is all Thomas lacked faith in, not in God or Jesus. Like a Sadducee, he didn't believe in the resurrection. Until he saw it with his own eyes, and felt Him with his hands.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2010, 09:27 AM
 
Location: US
27,998 posts, read 15,082,761 times
Reputation: 1754
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
LOL and my logic left you speachless, enough said
uh-huh...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2010, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,913 posts, read 4,238,069 times
Reputation: 402
Quote:
There is a huge difference in what you are trying to convey.

Thomas KNEW Jesus, loved Him, and served God with all he was.

He didn't know what to believe about the resurrection, but he had FAITH in God.

Kind of just like those who said Lord, lord did we not cast out devils in thy name?
Also all Jews have faith in God, and His Messiah, they just do not realise Jesus is that Messiah, what do you think will happen to them when they see Jesus for who He is?
It is surely not annihilation.

Quote:
Believing in the resurrection is not the same as believing in Jesus. I don't even know how you can compare the 2.

You cannot separate Jesus from the resurrection; to know Him you must believe He is the resurrection and the life.



Quote:
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me(RESURRECTED), thou hast believed(IN THE RESURRECTION): blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Does it say anything in here about being an atheist? It says blessed are they who have FAITH, if you cannot read into what He is saying. Belief into the unseen is what faith is.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So, the resurrection is all Thomas lacked faith in, not in God or Jesus. Like a Sadducee, he didn't believe in the resurrection. Until he saw it with his own eyes, and felt Him with his hands.


Those who did many works in Jesus name, casting out devils, healing the sick etc, God still say I never knew you.
As Thomas lacked faith in the resurrection, he lacked faith in Jesus Christ for by Jesus’ own words He is the resurrection and the life.

Look up evidence and let me know what you see. for faith is the evidence of things not seen.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2010, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,913 posts, read 4,238,069 times
Reputation: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
uh-huh...
lol that why you left this unanswered.

If people cannot be saved after they have seen the resurrected Christ than neither was Thomas because He did not believe UNTIL he saw, for one must believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the DEAD in order to be saved.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2010, 09:35 AM
 
Location: US
27,998 posts, read 15,082,761 times
Reputation: 1754
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post







This is what you call logic? Tis no wonder my logic fails you.

If people cannot be saved after they have seen the resurrected Christ than neither was Thomas because He did not believe UNTIL he saw, for one must believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the DEAD in order to be saved.
You just do not understand the chronology of the events...when Christ spoke...He was speaking in a way that was under the Law...after His ascension...things changed because He had already paid the price...before the cross man was still under the Law...While the Apostles walked with Jesus they were not particularly saved...but, after the ascension it was through Faith in Him the Salvation comes...Peter may very well be damned, for he denied Christ before man, and this is what Christ told him he would do...so, context, context, context...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top