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Old 07-14-2010, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
30,575 posts, read 16,457,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
UR ENFORCES the purpose of the cross....

Let me ask you... what effect does acceptance of Christ have on the number of people affected by the cross...

IOW - By not believing in Christ have I changed the number of people saved by the cross? And how is that possible... isn't the number set in stone...

UR states that ALL men were affected by the work on the cross...

YOU state that some men were affected by the work on the cross and that number can increase or decrease without any actual change to the event itself. So the cross essentially doesn't work for some but CAN if they do something.... Doesn't make any sense to me. Either the cross applies to all or for some there is no hope anyway as they were not included in the original act on the cross.
The cross does affect ALL because it pays the sin debt for all.

Therefore, there is no cost on our behalf for our justification - we only need to believe in Christ to be born again.
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Old 07-14-2010, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,816,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Do you even realize what you are saying?
Look at the context of the reply. He is answering an assertion that UR belief negates the purpose of the cross. In that context - the reply states that if the assertion is true then ET negates it even more.

Your welcome Mr. Hazelwood.
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Old 07-14-2010, 02:40 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,942,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Do you even realize what you are saying?

If the cross saves one person, it is worth the price - because without the cross, none are saved.

AND

If there is no cross & resurrection, then believing in Him is useless - see 1 Cor. 15.

I know exactly what I am saying.


You say

Quote:
"if the cross saves one person, it is worth the price, because without the cross none are saved"

That is a nice cliche but it is meaningless to me since scripture tells me that Christ died FOR ALL and ALL will confess JESUS as LORD.


Do you think Confessing Jesus as LORD is pointless and has no positive effect on the one CONFESSING?


Secondly, you need to realize, if you haven't, of course you may agree with the person I replied to, that this person doesn;t believe JESUS dies for ALL. He ONLY died for those who already believe according to him.
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Old 07-14-2010, 02:41 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,942,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Look at the context of the reply. He is answering an assertion that UR belief negates the purpose of the cross. In that context - the reply states that if the assertion is true then ET negates it even more.

Your welcome Mr. Hazelwood.


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Old 07-14-2010, 02:51 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,407,099 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
I know exactly what I am saying.

Secondly, you need to realize, if you haven't, of course you may agree with the person I replied to, that this person doesn;t believe JESUS dies for ALL. He ONLY died for those who already believe according to him.
No that's calvinism...which I didn't say. That is the presupposition.....the incorrect usage of the word "all" to sustain the validity of UR

2. There is no denial.
Good. "God's wrath remains on him" not "God's love"
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Old 07-14-2010, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Seward, Alaska
2,739 posts, read 7,981,825 times
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One big problem I have with "UR" is the idea that those who refuse Christ (and even many of us who DO accept Him) will then have to undergo a long period of "purification" in hell, that will likely last for thousands of years, or even eons (multiple millenia) of time, before they are finally "good enough" to go to heaven.
IE: "It's not forever, it's only 10,000 years...etc..."

Question: is God's power so weak that His purifying fire takes that agonizingly long to remove the sin nature? Why can't He take away our inclination to sin in just a blink of an eye, or a heartbeat, and thereby leave all the misery behind us quickly? I mean, He's all-powerful, right?


Bud
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:01 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,804,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
No that's calvinism...which I didn't say. That is the presupposition.....the incorrect usage of the word "all" to sustain the validity of UR

2. There is no denial.
Good. "God's wrath remains on him" not "God's love"
Are you referring to a literal hell when you quote that? If so, how can a fireball "remain" on someone if it's not already there?
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,863,949 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
The cross does affect ALL because it pays the sin debt for all.

Therefore, there is no cost on our behalf for our justification - we only need to believe in Christ to be born again.
But you are saying that those who reject Christianity are NOT affected by the cross so how does it affect all if not all are affected??
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
30,575 posts, read 16,457,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Look at the context of the reply. He is answering an assertion that UR belief negates the purpose of the cross. In that context - the reply states that if the assertion is true then ET negates it even more.

Your welcome Mr. Hazelwood.
OK - then I don't agree with either assertion or the reply.
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:04 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,942,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
No that's calvinism...which I didn't say. That is the presupposition.....the incorrect usage of the word "all" to sustain the validity of UR

2. There is no denial.
Good. "God's wrath remains on him" not "God's love"

Separation of Gods attributes from his nature is not scriptural.

Gods Wrath is through his inherant nature which is LOVE,

GOD is LOVE

Gods wrath remained on me until I believed, no there is no denial of that.

That WRATH remained upon me because the purpose of LOVE was to draw me to God. Wrath that does not do that is not Godly but can be seen in humans around the world.



You assert that ALL is incorrectly used, but there is no scriptural exclusions for that passage. There are certainly cases where ALL is not talking about "MANKIND" and those uses of ALL DEFINES the particular group it is intended to point out.

MANKIND in 1 Timothy 2:4 has no scriptural context to only mean "some"


Only an intepretation by a man invented set of guidlines to make ALL into a certain context does that for that passage. That context is not in scripture.
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