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Old 07-17-2010, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,913 posts, read 4,237,182 times
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Quote:
You just do not understand the chronology of the events...when Christ spoke...He was speaking in a way that was under the Law...after His ascension...things changed because He had already paid the price...before the cross man was still under the Law...


Most of mankind is still under the law Richard, nothing has changed for them. It is only after one believes in Christ that the law has no power over them. So the point still stands

If people cannot be saved after they have seen the resurrected Christ than neither was Thomas because He did not believe UNTIL he saw, for one must believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the DEAD in order to be saved.

Quote:
Peter may very well be damned, for he denied Christ before man


Eek gad. this is where your logic lead you
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Old 07-17-2010, 10:00 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,473,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Kind of just like those who said Lord, lord did we not cast out devils in thy name?


Who is it that cast out devils? Man? I don't think so. It is God who works through men. Right? Just because men do things in His Name, doesn't mean it is righteous. Just look at 'just wars'. Look at the early Christians who were burned at the stake, killed in arenas for sport, and beheaded for not submitting to statism and her authority. And then look at what became of Christianity AFTER statism married her, causing her to become the harlot. They STILL did horrific things in His Name, didn't they? They STILL do them today.


Quote:
Also all Jews have faith in God, and His Messiah, they just do not realise Jesus is that Messiah, what do you think will happen to them when they see Jesus for who He is?


No, the scales will fall off and they will finally SEE, and HEAR. But Romans tell us this was for the purpose of the Gentile. And hopefully we are talking about REAL Jews, and not Zionist false Jews, who say they are Jews, but are not.

Quote:
It is surely not annihilation.


Not for all of them. There are still those who hold to the faith of Abraham, in the literal sense. But there are a lot that will be destroyed, for they walk not by faith, nor under the new covenant.


Quote:
You cannot separate Jesus from the resurrection; to know Him you must believe He is the resurrection and the life.


Which is why Jesus revealed Himself to Thomas. It was the final summation to the burning questions cooncerning the resurrection. Proof. Which should be good enough for ALL of us, since we can read what happened 2000 years later. Right? Thomas Paine refused to believe in the resurrection, based upon Thomas' unbelief. But this doesn't hold water because this means he didn't believe what the bible said concerning it.


Quote:
Those who did many works in Jesus name, casting out devils, healing the sick etc, God still say I never knew you.


Really? Do we see this happening today? Maybe they 'think' they are, but really is God truly doing the work though them? I think not, so He(Jesus) MUST be talking about something else entirely. Sick in spirit perhaps? Medicating behavioral abnormalties? I don't know for sure, but I can speculate.

Quote:
As Thomas lacked faith in the resurrection, he lacked faith in Jesus Christ for by Jesusí own words He is the resurrection and the life.


None of them believed they would see Jesus again. Matt 28:17. Mark 16:11. Pay attention to 16:14 Don't you think there will be those who are reproached for their unbelief? How about Luke 24:11?? 24:37?? Doesn't verse 45 apply here? We need our eyes opened to see, don't we?




Quote:
Look up evidence and let me know what you see. for faith is the evidence of things not seen.


Already did. ^^
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Old 07-17-2010, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,913 posts, read 4,237,182 times
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Quote:
We need our eyes opened to see, don't we?
correct, so how is it that people cannot be saved after the see Jesus for who he is?

Everybody has to have Jesus reveiled to them, we both beleive and see Jesus for who he is and that is why we serve Him.

That we see Him does not take away our faith does it?

Of course not, seeing Him is the evidence of our faith.

So why then do you beleive those who have their eyes open to see him for who He is are annihilated?

Does not seeing Him cause them to beleive the same as it did Thomas?
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Old 07-17-2010, 11:05 AM
 
Location: US
27,997 posts, read 15,078,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post

Most of mankind is still under the law Richard, nothing has changed for them. It is only after one believes in Christ that the law has no power over them. So the point still stands

If people cannot be saved after they have seen the resurrected Christ than neither was Thomas because He did not believe UNTIL he saw, for one must believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the DEAD in order to be saved.



Eek gad. this is where your logic lead you
Mat 26:69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.
Mat 26:70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.
Mat 26:71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.
Mat 26:72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.


All right, explain this...
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Old 07-17-2010, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,493,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Mat 26:69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.
Mat 26:70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.
Mat 26:71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.
Mat 26:72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.


All right, explain this...
Peter was also the first to publicly preach after the resurrection. God added to the church 3000 people because of him.

This after the denial and resurrection.

(This is the message of the Bible in a nutshell, for me: People are never hopelessly lost, even after God destroys or removes them for a time. He called Peter Satan, remember?)

Acts 4:8-12

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers and elders of the people, if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well, let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead-- by this name this man stands here before you in good health.

"He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone. "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."
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Old 07-17-2010, 05:23 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,772,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
There is a huge difference in what you are trying to convey.

Thomas KNEW Jesus, loved Him, and served God with all he was.

He didn't know what to believe about the resurrection, but he had FAITH in God.

Believing in the resurrection is not the same as believing in Jesus. I don't even know how you can compare the 2.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me(RESURRECTED), thou hast believed(IN THE RESURRECTION): blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Does it say anything in here about being an atheist? It says blessed are they who have FAITH, if you cannot read into what He is saying. Belief into the unseen is what faith is.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So, the resurrection is all Thomas lacked faith in, not in God or Jesus. Like a Sadducee, he didn't believe in the resurrection. Until he saw it with his own eyes, and felt Him with his hands.
I can pretty much guarantee that if someone came on this message board and said they believed in Jesus and had faith in God, but did not believe that Jesus was resurrected, many people would be on them like white on rice telling them they weren't saved.
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Old 07-17-2010, 05:35 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,772,289 times
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Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow
About the Thomas thing, I'm not so sure about what you said. Can you be a true believer and not believe in Christ's resurrection? I would think most would say no, so that puts Thomas in a quandary. He believed in His resurrection only by sight, not faith.

We know Paul's conversion was abnormal because God doesn't generally go around revealing himself by sight. But God is no respecter of persons, so IMO, I don't think he would give one person a huge benefit of being saved by sight, and then when other people die and believe by sight, they are sent to burn in hell.

Paul said a lot of things, but nothing about a literal hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
He talked about it by implication...Paul wrote 14 letters from Romans to Hebrews...

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
This doesn't even imply a literal hell in the least, IMO. Also, even if it did, you're saying the author of all those letters in the bible, perhaps the most important preacher of all time, only implied hell. Is this the only verse you could find where you think he implied it? Why haven't all the hellfire and brimstone preachers simply implied it over the past 2,000 years to follow after his pattern, instead of declaring it? UR states over and over again, you reap what you sow, which is what this verse talks about. People can't sow setting someone on fire for eternity, so no one can reap that.

Jesus IS IN THE FIRE! Just like it says, "God is a consuming fire." He pays back trouble for those who trouble you - quite a lot like justice, huh? Trouble is not setting people on fire. Richard, stop listening to traditions of men and look at what the bible really says. God will NOT set people on fire.
5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
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Old 07-17-2010, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 865,478 times
Reputation: 205
I notice some posts on this thread keep working with the popular assumption that any and all sin being infinite; hence, requiring infinite retribution. This is beyond ridiculous. I am truly amazed at how ubiquitous this unscriptural idea is. For so many it is an unexamined prior commitment to a lie. It is handed down (tradition) to people who receive it without attempting to substantiate it from Scripture.

Also, there is not only unforgiven or forgiven sin. The other category is paying for your sin. Under the law certain retributions were required. When those were met, the sin was paid for. That made it over and done with. Steal an apple you payback two (2.) If you steal a man's means to make a living it is a four (4) fold return. One owes the restitution plus the lamb of atonement. Then it is over with.

I'm not advocating legalism, an attempt to be declared righteous by God because of our works. I'm just dealing with the fact there are other ways out than forgiveness. Also, from the required repayment, it is obvious God does not expect a never-ending payment of apples for all of eternity for the unforgiven apple thief. Humans do not commit infinte sin!

Of course, the popular doctrine portrays countless sentient beings in constant torture for ever because their sins are not forgiven. If god ever forgave them there would be no reason to continue torturing them. It is said to be the divine retribution exacted for their sin that satisfies the demands of the holiness of god and his justice. But, if he was ever satisfied, He'd stop torturing them. This god never forgives and is never satisfied. You who believe this are being changed into the same image.
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Old 07-17-2010, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,723,739 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
I notice some posts on this thread keep working with the popular assumption that any and all sin being infinite; hence, requiring infinite retribution. This is beyond ridiculous. I am truly amazed at how ubiquitous this unscriptural idea is. For so many it is an unexamined prior commitment to a lie. It is handed down (tradition) to people who receive it without attempting to substantiate it from Scripture.
Tru dat!
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Old 07-18-2010, 12:09 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,493,513 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
I notice some posts on this thread keep working with the popular assumption that any and all sin being infinite; hence, requiring infinite retribution. This is beyond ridiculous. I am truly amazed at how ubiquitous this unscriptural idea is. For so many it is an unexamined prior commitment to a lie. It is handed down (tradition) to people who receive it without attempting to substantiate it from Scripture.

Also, there is not only unforgiven or forgiven sin. The other category is paying for your sin. Under the law certain retributions were required. When those were met, the sin was paid for. That made it over and done with. Steal an apple you payback two (2.) If you steal a man's means to make a living it is a four (4) fold return. One owes the restitution plus the lamb of atonement. Then it is over with.

I'm not advocating legalism, an attempt to be declared righteous by God because of our works. I'm just dealing with the fact there are other ways out than forgiveness. Also, from the required repayment, it is obvious God does not expect a never-ending payment of apples for all of eternity for the unforgiven apple thief. Humans do not commit infinte sin!

Of course, the popular doctrine portrays countless sentient beings in constant torture for ever because their sins are not forgiven. If god ever forgave them there would be no reason to continue torturing them. It is said to be the divine retribution exacted for their sin that satisfies the demands of the holiness of god and his justice. But, if he was ever satisfied, He'd stop torturing them. This god never forgives and is never satisfied. You who believe this are being changed into the same image.
Good post. And the part in green is so horribly true.

I couldn't believe it when I learned that the idea of eternal retribution came not from the Bible but from MEN! Nowhere, in the ENTIRE Bible does it come close to suggesting that a sin against an infinite God deserves infinite retribution.

NOWHERE!

Man-made doctrine. Blech.
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