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Old 07-14-2010, 03:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
And I suppose one saved life doesn't mean much to you.
Not to me. I have/had 3 sons. I couldn't rejoice over just one son living in bliss while my other two sons, everyone I love, and everyone in the world I never knew were being tortured forever.
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:15 PM
 
40,084 posts, read 26,750,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
ALL OF THIS SPEAKS OF THE TRUE OBEDIENT BELIEVING CHRISTIAN, WHO IS EITHER ALIVE AND LIVING IN HIS WILL...OR HAS DIED AND WAITING TO BE RAISED UNTO HIM IN HIS PRESENCE...IT IS NOT!...I REPEAT NOT! SPEAKING TO ANYONE WHO IS LIVING IN THEIR SIN...OR WHO DIES IN THEIR SIN! THOSE WHO LIVE OR DIE IN THIER SIN...ARE SEPARATED FROM GOD! PERIOD!

Romans 14:11"...for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”

Isaiah 45:23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Philippians 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Philippians 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.


14:9 (For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived. The life of the Christian is a new life that springs out of Christ's death; we die with him; we rise with him...

Romans 6:4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
That he might be Lord of the dead and living. Hence, since our life comes from him, and springs from his death and resurrection, these make him our Lord, whether we be living or dead.

He is Lord of those that are living, to rule them; of those that are dead, to revive them, and raise them up.

Let every man search his own heart and life.

We should begin to lead a new life, as though we were already in heaven.

In Christ's love...prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
By what twisted rationale can you possibly see this as applying to ONLY believers? The wording unambiguously implies a general audience. Why would believers (who already bow to Him, etc.) be referred to as "SHALL" or "WILL?" Every means "EVERY!"
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,818,117 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post
I understand what you are saying, and (gasp!) I basically agree with your description of God's nature: He is love, and would not do that to people. (IE: "torture" people forever)

But...it is my understanding that God doesn't actually (actively) send anyone to hell, or actually (actively) torture people in hell....He doesn't have to. He doesn't have to do anything at all to see that happen...

Why not? Because....by a person dis-associating him/her-self from God (not accepting Christ), they are "strictly on their own" after death of their body. God's angels will not be there to "whisk them away". Why not? Because their names are not written in the Lamb's book of life, that's why. They refused to have anything to do with God while alive, so He basically says "Ok...you've made your choice"...
IE: God is a gentleman, and won't force Himself on anyone...that it's our/your choice. You think you can "go it alone" and don't need any help? Well...ok...goferit then. (and good luck...because you'll need it)

So then what...seeing that God doesn't send His angels to "pick them up", after death? So then....upon dying, these people instantly become easy prey to evil spirits...they are easy victims. (since they don't have the protection of God, or His angels). Where do they end up? Hell...of course. So did God cast them into hell? Nope...He did not. Is God torturing them? No, He's not...He doesn't have to...the devil and his evil empire take care of that.
But, sadly, invariably, God gets the blame for it...

Anyway, that's basically my understanding. The above just "IMO"...I don't claim it as hard and fast "gospel truth", and I'm not trying to teach it as such...it's just what I believe...

Bud
That is co-savior theology. Anytime you believe that God doesn't force you to be saved means that some other force is involved. If you believe it is your action to accept God then your taking part of the salvation process (co-savior).

Now, how is that the scriptures say that the carnal mind hates God and cannot be subject to the Law and yet you believe that the carnal mind will not hate God and accept Him?

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So obviously, anyone that does believe God and doesn't hate Him must be His will and not our own.
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:17 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Amen!
What are you Amening about?...You are trying to put believers back under the Law....
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:20 PM
 
Location: US
27,985 posts, read 15,062,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Christ suffering is even more meaningless if it only paved the way for those who were going to already believe in the first place.
But, that is what scripture says...He came for the Lost Sheep Of Israel...
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:23 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
UR ENFORCES the purpose of the cross....

Let me ask you... what effect does acceptance of Christ have on the number of people affected by the cross...

IOW - By not believing in Christ have I changed the number of people saved by the cross? And how is that possible... isn't the number set in stone...

UR states that ALL men were affected by the work on the cross...

YOU state that some men were affected by the work on the cross and that number can increase or decrease without any actual change to the event itself. So the cross essentially doesn't work for some but CAN if they do something.... Doesn't make any sense to me. Either the cross applies to all or for some there is no hope anyway as they were not included in the original act on the cross.
What in the world are you talking about????....
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:26 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Do you have scripture to back that up?

Really think about it. Jesus comes to this earth, carries out his ministry, suffers and is put to death. He is buried and is risen from the dead. Several thousand years later, one person is saved and everyone else ever created by God is set on fire forever. Is it really worth the price? Your answer might be, "Yes. If that one person is DRob4JC." It's a selfish, ridiculous saying that's not biblical. Christ is victorious like the bible says, and victory is not Xzillion lost and 1 saved.
Very illogical you are, my precious....
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
28,499 posts, read 15,458,018 times
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
I agree with the verse - however, it doesn't say all are saved.
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Seward, Alaska
2,739 posts, read 7,854,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
That is co-savior theology. Anytime you believe that God doesn't force you to be saved means that some other force is involved. If you believe it is your action to accept God then your taking part of the salvation process (co-savior).

Now, how is that the scriptures say that the carnal mind hates God and cannot be subject to the Law and yet you believe that the carnal mind will not hate God and accept Him?

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So obviously, anyone that does believe God and doesn't hate Him must be His will and not our own.


"Co-Saviour"...eh? Hmmm. It doesn't matter what you call it...the only thing that matters is the end result. The truth is we are involved, we do actively take part in the salvation process. How do I know? The Bible says so!

Romans 10:8-10

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

So when a man/woman confesses with the mouth, is God forcing them to do that?

I remember confessing Jesus as Lord with my mouth, and God didn't force me... My mind wasn't going "no...no...no...I won't do it!" Nothing "seized" my vocal cords and made me confess Christ against my will. I wanted to...I chose to...


Bud
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:28 PM
 
Location: US
27,985 posts, read 15,062,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
The cross does affect ALL because it pays the sin debt for all.

Therefore, there is no cost on our behalf for our justification - we only need to believe in Christ to be born again.
Christ's sacrifice paid temporally for the world but eternally for the elect...
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