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Old 07-17-2010, 06:58 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,477,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmalltownKSgirl View Post
I think it is an argument of last resort, to complain that your opponent is leaving something out or cherry picking. But it is one that is used quite often it seems.
That is because it is true.

If what you believe doesn't linee up with the WHOLE counsel of the Word, then logic dicates it cannot be true.
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Old 07-17-2010, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,688,207 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Once again, you are skipping whole sections of the Word to come up with your conclusions. Not saying your argument is not right, just not in the context you think it is.

I think you really need to read Romans again.

Everything you posted above applies ONLY to believers.

There is nothing in there that applies to another chance beyond physical death of the body. Nothing....
I don't believe in another chance beyond physical death... I am one of those odd URers who realizes that a dead man has no flesh.

However, I posted a verse that states the WICKED are justified... now are all believers also wicked?

I believe that upon death you are freed from your sin. Your wages are paid in full You can change masters during life at any time... but at death sin cannot be your master because the wages are paid and you are released from the flesh.

What you are saying is that after death you will be punished for sins.... that makes no sense to me. Here you wanna harp on salvation after death but you promote punishment after death.... what are people punished for after death?
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Old 07-17-2010, 10:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I don't believe in another chance beyond physical death... I am one of those odd URers who realizes that a dead man has no flesh.
Then you are one who believes that death of the flesh equates punishment for sin? You really think Genesis was referring to this?

Quote:
However, I posted a verse that states the WICKED are justified... now are all believers also wicked?
Until they are sanctified, yes. This is why even though they may be believers, they still must contiinually repent of their sins seeking forgiveness. The process of holiness can take a lifetime, or an instant. It just depends on the person, and what God has planned for them.

Quote:
I believe that upon death you are freed from your sin. Your wages are paid in full You can change masters during life at any time... but at death sin cannot be your master because the wages are paid and you are released from the flesh.
While some of this is true, some is not. Being freed from being able to sin upon physical death is a no brainer. How can you sin after death? The only thing awaiting the sinner without Christ is judgment. Like I said, you must believe only physical death is required for payment of sin. I believe it is spiritual death.

Quote:
What you are saying is that after death you will be punished for sins.... that makes no sense to me.
Depends how again you define death. Jesus clarified it when He said"Let the DEAD, bury the DEAD". He wasn't talking about skeletons popping out of the ground. He was talking about the spiritually dead.

Quote:
Here you wanna harp on salvation after death but you promote punishment after death.... what are people punished for after death?
Revelation 20:11-15 explains it better than I can.
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Old 07-17-2010, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,688,207 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I really don't think Jesus cried, "Father, forgive them," just so he could roast, toast, or annihilate his enemies. We turn the other cheek because that is how the other-worldly kingdom is run. The elect are here to practice these actions in a kindgdom with many foes, yes. But, why?

The meek inherit the earth. Become like children. Study war no more.
Well stated herefornow. I agree... how easy is it to love a good person.. but to love a wicked person... now that takes God.

This world is all we know. I say make the best of it and let Love be your master.
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Old 07-17-2010, 10:28 AM
 
Location: in the woods
180 posts, read 229,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I don't believe in another chance beyond physical death... I am one of those odd URers who realizes that a dead man has no flesh.

However, I posted a verse that states the WICKED are justified... now are all believers also wicked?

I believe that upon death you are freed from your sin. Your wages are paid in full You can change masters during life at any time... but at death sin cannot be your master because the wages are paid and you are released from the flesh.

What you are saying is that after death you will be punished for sins.... that makes no sense to me. Here you wanna harp on salvation after death but you promote punishment after death.... what are people punished for after death?
May I jump in here? I am new to this forum, but I have been following some of these threads, and I would like to comment briefly on this post from katonjj.

From what I have studied, the flesh is a symbol of what is really the fallen nature of man. It is his soul that sins, and it is his soul, that is punished.

Just my two cents
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Old 07-17-2010, 10:52 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,477,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerimiahJohnson View Post
May I jump in here? I am new to this forum, but I have been following some of these threads, and I would like to comment briefly on this post from katonjj.

From what I have studied, the flesh is a symbol of what is really the fallen nature of man. It is his soul that sins, and it is his soul, that is punished.

Just my two cents
And that is Biblical:

"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die."

And the LORD God formed man the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Without a Savior, this is the result.

And for those who say their God cannot do this, because He is 'just love'?

"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Taken from Ezekiel 18:4, and 32, and of course Genesis 2:7
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Old 07-17-2010, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,688,207 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Then you are one who believes that death of the flesh equates punishment for sin? You really think Genesis was referring to this?
Genesis? Can you elaborate so I can properly respond? I see in Rev. 22:3 that there will be no more curse... is that the Genesis curse?


Quote:
Until they are sanctified, yes. This is why even though they may be believers, they still must contiinually repent of their sins seeking forgiveness. The process of holiness can take a lifetime, or an instant. It just depends on the person, and what God has planned for them.
I agree. And that is what the URers have been trying to explain to you. The passage in Rev. 21 (But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars) is about believers! Believers are the wicked that are outside the city and then once inside they are justified. The problem I see with you is that you seem to think the bible is always referring to the ones you WANT it to refer to. What's up with that?


Quote:
While some of this is true, some is not. Being freed from being able to sin upon physical death is a no brainer. How can you sin after death? The only thing awaiting the sinner without Christ is judgment. Like I said, you must believe only physical death is required for payment of sin. I believe it is spiritual death.
Why would spiritual death be a punishment when the PURPOSE of the punishment is to reconcile you with your true master... isn't it? I don't particularly believe in any punishment. Think of it like a human father. A human father doesn't punish because they feel slighted or injured in any way... they punish to correct. Now if God punishes for eternity or at any time after death, how is it corrective? Who does this punishment benefit? It is a revenge sort of thing more than beneficial to either God or man... so if God desires all men come to know him and be saved...spiritual death would not be working toward that goal/desire.

Does that make sense?


Quote:
Depends how again you define death. Jesus clarified it when He said"Let the DEAD, bury the DEAD". He wasn't talking about skeletons popping out of the ground. He was talking about the spiritually dead.
I disagree, I believe Jesus was saying that THEY should let the spiritually dead leaders of the synagogue take care of it because Christ came to care for the physically living.... the dead know nothing.

I like that passage because it is as if Christ is playing on words. Dead (that are living) burying the dead (that are not living)...

Then Jesus says, "but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

His implication, IMO, is that the living are the focus as the dead (we see later) are preached to in the grave (or as I see it, they are affected by the cross later)... it also implies an urgency for them as if there was only a short span of time before he would be gone (and there was..).

Quote:
Revelation 20:11-15 explains it better than I can.
Yeah...well... as an "odd URer" and a preterist, I can only say that this picture is not of any afterlife... but I don't have time to go into it... hubby wants me to go help him paint my father's house. (LOL I read that over and in light of the conversation one might think I was going to paint a church... but it is my earthly father's house.... )

But perhaps we can revisit that?
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Old 07-17-2010, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,688,207 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerimiahJohnson View Post
May I jump in here? I am new to this forum, but I have been following some of these threads, and I would like to comment briefly on this post from katonjj.

From what I have studied, the flesh is a symbol of what is really the fallen nature of man. It is his soul that sins, and it is his soul, that is punished.

Just my two cents
I am glad you did. The only thing is... the soul according to Genesis is a body + spirit. When your body is gone (you are dead) then you are not a living soul anymore. Therefore the soul cannot be punished after death... it does not exist...

Welcome to the forums....Glad to have you here!

I will be back later...
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Old 07-17-2010, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,688,207 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
And that is Biblical:

"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die."

And the LORD God formed man the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Without a Savior, this is the result.

And for those who say their God cannot do this, because He is 'just love'?

"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Taken from Ezekiel 18:4, and 32, and of course Genesis 2:7
My hubby is being very patient! Because I had to respond to this:

You said "Just Love" ....in your view is Just Love (as in fair love) an oxymoron?

for a URer... we trust that God IS fair and loving.. so he would 1. never burn people for any length of time while they cry out in agony... and 2. make sure all people come to know him.

Just Love... I like that!

Ok.. now I really must submit to the hubby...before he drives away without me.
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Old 07-17-2010, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,497,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
The forgiveness Jesus prayed for was for killing Him. They did it out of not knowing what they were doing.

It is why Jesus said:

"Father, forgive them for they KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO".

Did this apply to everything they did, or this one act they committed against Him? I believe the second.
That's ridiculous.

So, don't forgive them for lying, or stealing, or whatever it was that they did in their lives, but forgive them for brutally crucifying the son of God?

How does this forgiving thing work, exactly?

Does the world know what it is doing?

I believe Jesus was giving an example for us to follow in the middle of great darkness.

Last edited by herefornow; 07-17-2010 at 02:04 PM..
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