U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-17-2010, 02:17 PM
 
Location: in the woods
180 posts, read 229,145 times
Reputation: 29

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I am glad you did. The only thing is... the soul according to Genesis is a body + spirit. When your body is gone (you are dead) then you are not a living soul anymore. Therefore the soul cannot be punished after death... it does not exist...

Welcome to the forums....Glad to have you here!

I will be back later...
Hello katonjj...thank you for your reply. It is good to have exchange, even though I am seldom engaging in the scriptures as you all do with each other (I am more of the private type). I tend to lurk and surf all over the internet, engaging sporadically.

Anyway LOL...from reading your post above, it appears to me, that simply, you are an atheist. You believe in the enlightenment of life, as we know of it, on a physiological level, but without a soul, we can only deduce these feelings of enlightenment you are expressing, feeling, inheriting, in this life, are solely biological and chemical, not spiritual and enduring. If we have not a soul after our physical death, we had none to begin with.

Interesting thoughts, however it must be conclusive that you ascribe to no religion of any sort, for all of them, incorporate ourselves as having living souls, whether they are "dead" or "living."

Thanks again for your reply. Looking forward to more from you. You interest me, as I am familliar with another fellow on the Internet, that has the same thoughts as you do, although I disagree with, but nonetheless, is intriguing as to why you, and him, focus on a religion such as Christianity.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-17-2010, 08:38 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,471,270 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
That's ridiculous.

So, don't forgive them for lying, or stealing, or whatever it was that they did in their lives, but forgive them for brutally crucifying the son of God?

How does this forgiving thing work, exactly?

Does the world know what it is doing?

I believe Jesus was giving an example for us to follow in the middle of great darkness.

No, not reading the WHOLE verse is rediculous.

"FATHER FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO!"- Luke 23:34

When you lie, do you know you are lying?
When you steal, do you know you are stealing?

Wanna know why forgiveness was given to those men who crucified Him? Because it was the Father's plan, not theirs. Preordained.

But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2010, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,490,639 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
No, not reading the WHOLE verse is rediculous.

"FATHER FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO!"- Luke 23:34

When you lie, do you know you are lying?
When you steal, do you know you are stealing?

Wanna know why forgiveness was given to those men who crucified Him? Because it was the Father's plan, not theirs. Preordained.

But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
Yes, people do know that they are doing something wrong when they lie and steal, and the people that crucified Jesus did not think they were doing anything wrong. I get what you are saying.

But, you don't get my point. Forgiving them for that one action, but annihilating them after they die doesn't make any sense. Does it??? What's the point? You are a believer in annihilation, are you not?

And, God would have to annihilate most of his creation. And that just doesn't match up with scripture. Revelation 5:13 for instance. And the reconciliation of things in HEAVEN and earth. What in the heavens needs reconciling?

I said this before. Saul/Paul was NO different than the Pharisees he hung out with. He was CHOSEN for a higher purpose. There was absolutely NOTHING he did to make the truth open up to him. Nothing.

I think you are missing big pieces of scripture. The whole picture, as they say.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2010, 09:51 PM
 
Location: in the woods
180 posts, read 229,145 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Yes, people do know that they are doing something wrong when they lie and steal, and the people that crucified Jesus did not think they were doing anything wrong. I get what you are saying.

But, you don't get my point. Forgiving them for that one action, but annihilating them after they die doesn't make any sense. Does it??? What's the point? You are a believer in annihilation, are you not?

And, God would have to annihilate most of his creation. And that just doesn't match up with scripture. Revelation 5:13 for instance. And the reconciliation of things in HEAVEN and earth. What in the heavens needs reconciling?

I said this before. Saul/Paul was NO different than the Pharisees he hung out with. He was CHOSEN for a higher purpose. There was absolutely NOTHING he did to make the truth open up to him. Nothing.

I think you are missing big pieces of scripture. The whole picture, as they say.
Hello herefornow,

Would not eternal destruction mean just that...destruction forever?
Never allowed to come back to life?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2010, 10:08 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,471,270 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Yes, people do know that they are doing something wrong when they lie and steal, and the people that crucified Jesus did not think they were doing anything wrong. I get what you are saying.
Cool.

Quote:
But, you don't get my point. Forgiving them for that one action, but annihilating them after they die doesn't make any sense. Does it???
It makes perfect sense, if they die in their sins without Jesus. Perhaps the Jews will receive a few stripes, since they have faith. I don't know, to be honest.


Quote:
What's the point?
For what? The case for annihilation? Or the end act of annihilating the wicked from the presence? Or was it that Jesus forgave them for that act against Him, but maybe the Father will just wipe them out in the end?

Quote:
You are a believer in annihilation, are you not?
Absolutely.

Quote:
And, God would have to annihilate most of his creation.
And He will. After all, they are His creation.

Quote:
And that just doesn't match up with scripture.
It is the only point that matches up with the whole of scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

Quote:
Revelation 5:13 for instance.
That is the beginning, not the end. In the beginning, creation KNEW God, and the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.

Quote:
And the reconciliation of things in HEAVEN and earth. What in the heavens needs reconciling?
Show me the scripture.

Quote:
I said this before. Saul/Paul was NO different than the Pharisees he hung out with. He was CHOSEN for a higher purpose. There was absolutely NOTHING he did to make the truth open up to him. Nothing.
He was called/invited. He still had to accept Jesus, be sanctified, and overcome the flesh. This is the primary message he delivers to the churches.

Quote:
I think you are missing big pieces of scripture. The whole picture, as they say.
Really? Then please explain it to me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2010, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,490,639 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerimiahJohnson View Post
Hello herefornow,

Would not eternal destruction mean just that...destruction forever?
Never allowed to come back to life?

The only word that can properly be attached to "eternal" is "God," as He alone is eternal. Any other verse that uses the word "eternal" needs to be looked at a little more closely.

Figuring out what the word was translated from and it's context is a good thing to do.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with eternal fire; I take that to mean that the city itself in that former condition will never rise again. Also, God IS the eternal fire. So, you can take that verse two different ways.

BUT!

Sodom and her sisters will be restored, Ezekiel 16:55. And Sodom will have a better time at judgment than Capernaum, Matthew 11:24. How can somebody have a BETTER time at judgment?

Here are a few verses that show something eternally, everlastingly, forever and ever-ly destroyed or whatever being restored and brought back.


Below is from: Hell is Leaving the Bible Forever</b></font>

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek. 16:53-55).


Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17).


Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).


An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3)


Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).


The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).


Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.


The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).


The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).


God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17)


Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).


"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).


Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).


So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until-- and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty, setting the captives free so God becomes all in all (Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor. 15:24-28).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2010, 10:51 PM
 
Location: in the woods
180 posts, read 229,145 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
The only word that can properly be attached to "eternal" is "God," as He alone is eternal. Any other verse that uses the word "eternal" needs to be looked at a little more closely.

Figuring out what the word was translated from and it's context is a good thing to do.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with eternal fire; I take that to mean that the city itself in that former condition will never rise again. Also, God IS the eternal fire. So, you can take that verse two different ways.

BUT!

Sodom and her sisters will be restored, Ezekiel 16:55. And Sodom will have a better time at judgment than Capernaum, Matthew 11:24. How can somebody have a BETTER time at judgment?

Here are a few verses that show something eternally, everlastingly, forever and ever-ly destroyed or whatever being restored and brought back.


Below is from: Hell is Leaving the Bible Forever</b></font>

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek. 16:53-55).


Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17).


Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).


An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3)


Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).


The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).


Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.


The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).


The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).


God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17)


Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).


"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).


Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).


So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until-- and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty, setting the captives free so God becomes all in all (Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor. 15:24-28).
Thank you herefornow for your well thought out reply to me. It is very kind of you to take the time in responding to my questions and comments. About "eternal" and its use, if the writer's of the OT and NT, or better yet, His faithful servants that recorded the books we have now, and most likely, many that were lost, most notably, that awful collapse of their astounding temple of Zerubbabel and Herod, were truly inspired by God as Paul calimed they were, then we must immediately consider that eternal life, death, destruction, fire and others symbols and realities, would be logically to be considered such as what God is, as you said, eternal. It seems that this would be a consistent and logical appraoch in not only application, but should resonate profoundly to the readers then, throughout history, and now. We need to, as Christians, to try to stay aligned with what God has told us, in what we have now, called the Bible, His record and word, that in my opinion, confirms itself always. I must accept that as a child of God, when I first picked up the Bible, and read it as a young child searching and yearning for His company, the meaning of eternal never changed for me. I must accept that the writers are inspired by God, and that when they said eternal, they meant, in any subject presented to us children of God. Is it wrong for me to think God is consistent in His word as He is for Himself?

Thanks again for conversing with me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2010, 11:02 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,490,639 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerimiahJohnson View Post
Thank you herefornow for your well thought out reply to me. It is very kind of you to take the time in responding to my questions and comments. About "eternal" and its use, if the writer's of the OT and NT, or better yet, His faithful servants that recorded the books we have now, and most likely, many that were lost, most notably, that awful collapse of their astounding temple of Zerubbabel and Herod, were truly inspired by God as Paul calimed they were, then we must immediately consider that eternal life, death, destruction, fire and others symbols and realities, would be logically to be considered such as what God is, as you said, eternal. It seems that this would be a consistent and logical appraoch in not only application, but should resonate profoundly to the readers then, throughout history, and now. We need to, as Christians, to try to stay aligned with what God has told us, in what we have now, called the Bible, His record and word, that in my opinion, confirms itself always. I must accept that as a child of God, when I first picked up the Bible, and read it as a young child searching and yearning for His company, the meaning of eternal never changed for me. I must accept that the writers are inspired by God, and that when they said eternal, they meant, in any subject presented to us children of God. Is it wrong for me to think God is consistent in His word as He is for Himself?

Thanks again for conversing with me.
No problem. Eternal means eternal, but, if you would patiently go through the above scriptures I gave you, you will find that the Bible uses the word "eternal" in very strange ways.

And, I agree. God is consistent and does not lie. So I'm inclined to believe him when he says he is reconciling ALL things to himself. Things in HEAVEN and EARTH. I believe wholeheartedly that he will do just that.

So, that in the end every knee will bow and praise him and every tongue confess that he is Lord.

Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

Last edited by herefornow; 07-18-2010 at 12:30 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2010, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,490,639 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
But, you don't get my point. Forgiving them for that one action, but annihilating them after they die doesn't make any sense. Does it???

HotinAZ: It makes perfect sense, if they die in their sins without Jesus. Perhaps the Jews will receive a few stripes, since they have faith. I don't know, to be honest.

Herefornow: To be honest with you, beating somebody with some stripes before you annihilate them seems rather silly..........if that's what you meant.

Herefornow: What's the point?

HotinAZ: For what? The case for annihilation? Or the end act of annihilating the wicked from the presence? Or was it that Jesus forgave them for that act against Him, but maybe the Father will just wipe them out in the end?

Herefornow: Scratching head.

Herefornow: And, God would have to annihilate most of his creation. And that just doesn't match up with scripture.

HotinAZ: And He will. After all, they are His creation.

Herefornow: Oh. That makes perfect sense. But it doesn't match up with scripture. Are there really only gonna be a couple of humans left after this is all said and done?

All of these verses that I'm going to throw at you don't make for a lot of oomph, if you know what I mean, if what you say is true.


I Tim 4:10 It is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.


I Tim 2:5,6 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to be borne at the proper time.

Col 1:19-22 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself,things on earth or things in heaven. having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

Rev 15:3,4 And they sang the song of Moses... and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Thy ways, Thou King of the Nations. Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou alone art holy; For all the nations will come and worship before Thee, for Thy righteous acts have been revealed."

I John 4:14 And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

I John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation [ie., satisfaction or appeasement] for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Heb 2:8 For in subjecting all things to him [ie., man], He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him...But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for every one.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

Phil 2:9-11 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. should bow, of those who are

Should I go on??? I've got a gaggle of them.


Herefornow: Revelation 5:13 for instance.

HotinAZ: Revelation 5:13. That is the beginning, not the end. In the beginning, creation KNEW God, and the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.

Herefornow: Uh-huh.

This is from Wesley's notes: This praise from all creatures begins before the opening of the first seal; but it continues from that time to eternity, according to the capacity of each.
Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

Herefornow: And the reconciliation of things in HEAVEN and earth. What in the heavens needs reconciling?

HotinAZ: Show me the scripture.

Herefornow: Colossians 1:19,20: For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself,things on earth or things in heaven. having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Interestingly enough, Mike555 agreed that God TRIED to reconcile the fallen angels.

I said, "God tried at one time in the past, BEFORE THE CROSS, to reconcile the angels?" And he said, "yep." So, I said, "hmmm."

Colossians 1:20 says he RECONCILED and MADE PEACE through the CROSS, things on earth and things in heaven! So, the reconciling could not have happened more than 2000 years ago. It had to happen at the cross. He made peace with things in heaven at the cross.

See post #123: The Restoration of all Things; Acts 3:21.


Herefornow: I said this before. Saul/Paul was NO different than the Pharisees he hung out with. He was CHOSEN for a higher purpose. There was absolutely NOTHING he did to make the truth open up to him. Nothing.

HotinAZ: He was called/invited. He still had to accept Jesus, be sanctified, and overcome the flesh. This is the primary message he delivers to the churches.

Herefornow: You are a Calvinist? Why weren't the others called and mowed over by the light?

Herefornow: And that doesn't match up with scripture.

HotinAZ: It is the only point (annihilation) that matches up with the whole of scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

Herefornow: In your opinion. See above. I could quote huge swaths of scripture, but it would be a VERY long post. Well, longer than it is now.

Herefornow: I think you are missing big pieces of scripture. The whole picture, as they say.

HotinAZ: Really? Then please explain it to me.

Herefornow: Hopefully, I have.

Above in blue: HotinAZ. Above in green, black, and purple: Herefornow. Obviously. I just needed to put something in the reply box.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2010, 12:04 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,670,144 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerimiahJohnson View Post
Hello katonjj...thank you for your reply. It is good to have exchange, even though I am seldom engaging in the scriptures as you all do with each other (I am more of the private type). I tend to lurk and surf all over the internet, engaging sporadically.

Anyway LOL...from reading your post above, it appears to me, that simply, you are an atheist. You believe in the enlightenment of life, as we know of it, on a physiological level, but without a soul, we can only deduce these feelings of enlightenment you are expressing, feeling, inheriting, in this life, are solely biological and chemical, not spiritual and enduring. If we have not a soul after our physical death, we had none to begin with.

Interesting thoughts, however it must be conclusive that you ascribe to no religion of any sort, for all of them, incorporate ourselves as having living souls, whether they are "dead" or "living."

Thanks again for your reply. Looking forward to more from you. You interest me, as I am familliar with another fellow on the Internet, that has the same thoughts as you do, although I disagree with, but nonetheless, is intriguing as to why you, and him, focus on a religion such as Christianity.
Hmmm... Atheist? I got it from here:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top