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Old 07-15-2010, 09:42 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,418,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Gee..... I guess every other Bible scholar except the one that agrees with your doctrine is wrong.
You pretend to have studied every bible scholar who ever lived? Thats doubtful ...

AS a matter of fact how i interpret that scripture is one of three common interpretations, and not simply mine own. And you are using a logical fallacy known as argument from authority anyway ...

You believe every bible scholar that disagrees with your doctrine is wrong also ... So what?

The fact is it can and certainly is interpreted to mean exactly what it says, that the gospel is preached to the dead in order that they might live according to the spirit of God. You choose not to accept it for what it plainly says, but choose to read into it something that it does not say ... Because if you were to take it to mean what it actually says, it would interfere with your doctrine of everlasting evil and hell ...



Peace ...
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Old 07-15-2010, 09:49 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,612,603 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
John 11:24-26

24Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Context and modern English matter. Jesus said in the following verse ya gotta be alive when you believe.
He said nothing of the kind in any translation. He simply said that those who are alive and believe will not die.

Here again is dead people hearing Christ's voice, believing, and coming to life.
  • John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live

But thank you for pointing that the verb "were dead" is not actually in the past tense. According to Strongs the aorist tense does not imply past, present, or future.

It's just a bit odd though that according to that translation
v25 he who is alive and believes in Christ might die
v26 he who is alive and believes in Christ will never die

Quote:
Observation: I do wonder why 90% of the UR folk use Ye Olde King James Version as your proof text.
Has nothing to do with UR. I've used KJV my whole life, not exclusively, but my favorite... I grew up on it and like the sound of it. I've been UR for a small fraction of that.

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 07-15-2010 at 10:01 PM..
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Old 07-16-2010, 06:36 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,850,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is a common tactic of universalists to say 'show me a verse that says this or that,' in an attempt to refute the fact that those who die without Christ are eternally lost. There are no second chances after death.

Yes your right, that it is a poor tactic to use to define biblical truth, that is why to single out universalists as using this tactic is a flat out load of crap.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is a trustworthy thing to do at any time.

A non universalist then asked me the question "Got a scripture that says this happens after you die"

So where was Mike pointing out this common tactic? Oh I guess mike missed that post, would you like me to find it for you? Oh wait, it is right in this thread.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is a trustworthy thing to do and a trustworthy thing to biblically teach.

To teach that Confessing Jesus as Lord, might not do you any good then defines that it may not do you any good either and claiming otherwise doesn't change anything.
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Old 07-16-2010, 06:49 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,850,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
All very nice words and opinions.

But still no one has provided scripture that says you can accept Christ after death. Perhaps there isn't any.

This is great, Mike555 admonishes universalists for expecting others to show a verse that says this or that and here you are expecting specific verses as if that means if I cannot show one then it must mean you are right.

It is a really poor tactic and Mike is right about that, but I'll bet Mike won't spend any time saying anything to you about it. Nor will you show him that he is wrong, or will you, lets see.......

You do realize that the bible can add up to a conclusion without having to provide these specific verses that you expect someone to find.


YES, Mike is right, it is a common tactic, I showed you a plain straight forward belief in scripture and the best you can do is accuse me of defining my faith by opinion.

So when I believe that Confessing Jesus as Lord to be a trustworthy thing to do, simply tell me why I need to doubt that for any reason.

You won't be able to do it.


Wow, I confessed Jesus as Lord and it didn't mean squat. Glad you told me, I might of actually believed it meant something.
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Old 07-16-2010, 07:13 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,479,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
No one can provide a verse that says you cannot accept Christ after death and be saved.

1Pe 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.


The word here translated as "was preached" is "euEggelisthE" and according to the greek interlinear it should be translated as "is preached"



Will you answer my question?
Nice, even though this is not talking about BEING DEAD in the BODY. It is talking about those dead in spirit. Only through Jesus Christ can the spirit be born again into Him. That is why is says they will LIVE ACCORDING TO GOD.

This is line with Paul in Romans 8 and Jesus sayiing 'let the dead bury the dead'.

Until the gospel is preached and received, all men are dead.

So, next verse please? This one doesn't hold water.

Clarification, read verse 17-18.

ALL men are judged according to the flesh.
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Old 07-16-2010, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,913 posts, read 4,248,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
All very nice words and opinions.

But still no one has provided scripture that says you can accept Christ after death. Perhaps there isn't any.
Huh, when does all knees bowing and confessing Jesus is Lord take place?

AFTER DEATH

Confession is made unto what?

SALVATION

Now you have been shown
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,913 posts, read 4,248,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I think it is your opinion that contradicts the scriptures in the OP.

And the term "whosoever" is a volitional word. A choice that is made. Whoever believes will be saved. Where is it written that we can make that choice to be saved after we die.


Revelation 22:14-17
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Who are these people outside the gates of the city?

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

What right do those people have that are outside the gates of the city?

They have the right to the tree of life

They have the right to enter into the city via the gates.

What gives them these rights?

The keeping of His commandments


16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.

Whom are the spirit and the bride saying come to?

Whosoever will

What do whosoever get?

The water of life freely.

And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Who is the whosoever in reference to?

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

When does all this take place?

After the judgment of the great white throne.

These scriptures show most emphatically that WHOSOEVER will is in relation to those in DEATH and that those in DEATH still have the right to the tree of life and can enter into the gates of the city when they learn to keep His commandments.
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:29 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,418,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Nice, even though this is not talking about BEING DEAD in the BODY. It is talking about those dead in spirit. Only through Jesus Christ can the spirit be born again into Him. That is why is says they will LIVE ACCORDING TO GOD.

This is line with Paul in Romans 8 and Jesus sayiing 'let the dead bury the dead'.

Until the gospel is preached and received, all men are dead.

So, next verse please? This one doesn't hold water.

Clarification, read verse 17-18.

ALL men are judged according to the flesh.

According to the traditions you subscribe to. The word in this verse "also" or "even"(Greek -kai)shows that it is not referring to the spiritually dead, as we are all spiritually dead before we believe the gospel. The gospel is also preached to them that are now dead ... Being that though they are judged in the flesh as men, i.e. they died(the wages of sin is death and it is appointed unto man to die once), they may live according to the spirit of God.

The fact is i produced a verse the specifically seays the the gospel is preached to the dead and all the fundies who ask for a scripture simply explain it away, and do not even agree on what it means.


Look at how the (NLV) translates the verse ...

"That is why the Good News was preached to those who are now dead--so although they were destined to die like all people, they now live forever with God in the Spirit."

And the (NIV)

"For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."

(ISV)

"Indeed, this is why the gospel was proclaimed even to those who have died, so that they could be judged in their mortal flesh like all humans and live in the spiritual realm like God."

(ERV)
For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


The word "KAI" distinguishes the dead in this verse as those who have died as opposed to those who are still alive.
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Old 07-18-2010, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,499,079 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Huh, when does all knees bowing and confessing Jesus is Lord take place?

AFTER DEATH

Confession is made unto what?

SALVATION

Now you have been shown

Short and sweet.
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