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Old 07-21-2010, 07:44 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,342,592 times
Reputation: 330

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Quote:
Originally Posted by shyspider View Post
Tell you what, Juj. Why don't you tell me why the Catholics and Orthodox, both of which claim to be the original church, have different views about the truth regarding some very crucial doctrines. Then you can get back to me and wallop me about what I know about truth as a Protestant.

I highly suspect an Orthodox would fight you tooth and nail, countering every single point you try to make about how the Catholic church is the true church and that the Orthodox are the ones who broke away.
The Early Church Fathers wrote that Rome was the head and some wrote that any church that didn't agree with it was heretical. This was as early as the late second century. Peter was made head by Jesus (Matthew 16:13-19). Peter was in Rome. End of story. The Orthodox churches can say what they want, but the Bible and the Early Church Fathers say otherwise. Besides, the Orthodox Church doesn't think the Pope is the head but otherwise is in full communion with the Catholic Church so don't quite put the Orthodox in the same boat as protestants. The protestants tried to get rid of everything Catholic and don't even agree with one another on things as important as justification. The Orthodox churches and the Catholic Church are not too far apart so maybe one day the organizations may come back together.
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Old 07-21-2010, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,511,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Nope, it's not just you! Even the bible itself says that it is WRONG to forbid to marry - so the Catholic church is just wrong on so many levels. The entire organized institution gives me the creeps, big time.
Wasn't that a doctrine of demons? Forbidding to marry?

Whoops.
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Old 07-21-2010, 10:32 PM
 
1,139 posts, read 1,534,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shyspider View Post
You're not supposed to get defensive when attacked (although I wouldn't say I'm actually "attacking the RCC"). Jesus taught that if someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer them your other cheek, too. He said to bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who persecute you. He did NOT say "take on a snotty, defensive attitude and look down upon those who disagree with your beliefs".
I really don't know when I was snotty to you? Can you point it out? It must be a misunderstanding, cause it never was my attention. I think, I may know what post you're reffering to. And I can see how a misunderstanding can be had. So please point it out, to make sure.
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Old 07-21-2010, 10:34 PM
 
1,139 posts, read 1,534,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Wasn't that a doctrine of demons? Forbidding to marry?

Whoops.
Again. NO ONE is forbidden to marry.
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Old 07-22-2010, 06:55 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,342,592 times
Reputation: 330
This video is spot on:

YouTube - False Ecumenism 06-30
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Old 07-22-2010, 08:29 AM
 
621 posts, read 1,058,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
The Early Church Fathers wrote that Rome was the head and some wrote that any church that didn't agree with it was heretical. This was as early as the late second century. Peter was made head by Jesus (Matthew 16:13-19). Peter was in Rome. End of story. The Orthodox churches can say what they want, but the Bible and the Early Church Fathers say otherwise. Besides, the Orthodox Church doesn't think the Pope is the head but otherwise is in full communion with the Catholic Church so don't quite put the Orthodox in the same boat as protestants. The protestants tried to get rid of everything Catholic and don't even agree with one another on things as important as justification. The Orthodox churches and the Catholic Church are not too far apart so maybe one day the organizations may come back together.
As I said, Juj, an Orthodox will counter every point you've made. The reason I mentioned that is because you want to assume I know nothing about truth, as a Protestant, but I know enough about Catholics and Orthodox to know neither church is in agreement with one another regarding the truth of some very crucial issues. Surely you don't need me to point out those issues to you...? The Filioque, Immaculate Conception, papacy, view on original sin, et al. The point being those issues were serious enough to split the church. Both sides believe their ideas on the matters are THE truth. So don't talk to me about the Protestants not knowing anything about truth until you get your OWN church's ideas about truth settled. It's called "taking the log out of your own eye before you attempt to remove the splinter out of someone else's."

Something else you might want to consider, Juj, is that it's quite possible those early church "fathers" were wrong. There were already disagreements among the believers in the early church. Paul DOES tell us in Acts 20:29,30 that there would be wolves who would come after he departed, and that there would even be men from the group he was addressing that would distort the truth in order to gain a following. So how are we so sure that what those early church father's wrote wasn't misguided and in error?

Last edited by shyspider; 07-22-2010 at 08:43 AM..
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Old 07-22-2010, 08:56 AM
 
621 posts, read 1,058,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
I really don't know when I was snotty to you? Can you point it out? It must be a misunderstanding, cause it never was my attention. I think, I may know what post you're reffering to. And I can see how a misunderstanding can be had. So please point it out, to make sure.
Well, basically it's when you said "deal with it" in your post below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
Is it a grave crime? I don't know. But it is against The Churches teaching, so deal with it. There not saying it is a bad as other obvious things. But It's still against teaching, none the less.
The tone of what you said implies you were being condescending. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. BUT...look at what you also said in the following post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
That's a completely different matter. Why because they do something else wrong, they aren't allowed to do something right. You messed up "A", so therefore, you're not allowed to do "B" right. Thats idiotic thinking. Is how they handle those priests horrible, Yes. But that's not what we're talking about is it? No.
Can you not discern how that comes across to someone else when you tell them their thinking is "idiotic"?

I don't know if you read what I wrote in my other thread here in the religion forum, but I recently had a bad experience with other Catholics at a different website when I was accused of wanting to take something from the church by seeking to bypass the RCIA process during a time when I was interested in converting to Catholicism. I simply asked why it took so long to become Catholic, and I expressed my desire to partake of communion. I stated that I already understood, and at the time ACCEPTED, the Catholic teachings that were required before one could be confirmed and partake of communion. One Catholic had the audacity to say it sounded like I only wanted to take something from the church without giving anything in return (as if Christ demands we give him anything in return for his grace anyway). Well, how DARE she say that to me? She knew nothing about me. The attitude of those Catholics toward me really infuriated me, and completely turned me off to wanting to become Catholic. Is it really such a good thing for Catholics to have such attitudes that they turn people away from the church? I will not reconsider my decision. That experience was the last straw for me.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:06 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,342,592 times
Reputation: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by shyspider View Post
As I said, Juj, an Orthodox will counter every point you've made. The reason I mentioned that is because you want to assume I know nothing about truth, as a Protestant, but I know enough about Catholics and Orthodox to know neither church is in agreement with one another regarding the truth of some very crucial issues. Surely you don't need me to point out those issues to you...? The Filioque, Immaculate Conception, papacy, view on original sin, et al. The point being those issues were serious enough to split the church. Both sides believe their ideas on the matters are THE truth. So don't talk to me about the Protestants not knowing anything about truth until you get your OWN church's ideas about truth settled. It's called "taking the log out of your own eye before you attempt to remove the splinter out of someone else's."
We do have the Truth settled. Why do you think that the Catholic Church (One Church created by Jesus Christ) has to be in agreement with the orthodox churchES (again, not one church but an association of autonomous churches) for Jesus's Church to have Truth? The Catholic Church IS the vessel as dictated by Jesus Christ to contain Truth and guide Christianity to that Truth. Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church founded on Peter. If you don't believe in that, then you doubt Jesus's Word.

And please don't pile all protestants into one group as if there was some singular opinion on truth, which is completely ridiculous. I hear so many protestants use the phrase "the church" as if there was some material or mystical organization named "the church". More bull pile.

And spare me the false premise that if the orthodox churches disagree with Jesus's church, then it's okay for the 33,000+ protestant churches to disagree with themselves and the Catholic Church. Two wrongs.....

The concept of "every man for himself" Christianity CANNOT be correct. It can only lead to thousands of falsehoods which ultimately causes the weakening of the faith because there is no logic in the concept, nor in the doctrines created from it. Another false concept is that the Bible interprets itself. WHAT?! Then why are we even arguing on this forum? The concept of Sola Scriptura is a recipe for disaster and chaos and created for the singular purpose of making it okay to be separate and heretical.

Christ did not leave us the Bible. He left us a living Church that would be protected from falsehoods. Sacred Scripture COMBINED with Sacred Tradition with the Catholic Magesterium to determine and protect Jesus's Truth. A beautiful design, I might add.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:33 AM
 
621 posts, read 1,058,211 times
Reputation: 283
Okay, Juj, you're taking on that typical Catholic attitude I was talking to DNick about, and frankly I'm not going to put up with it on my end. If you want to be so anti-Protestant in your posts, then you cannot reasonably cry "fowl" when Protestants are anti-Catholic. And honestly, I'm NOT anti-Catholic. I simply do not accept the validity of some of the teachings of the RCC...whether you want to accuse me of disagreeing with Jesus' words or not. I know my relationship with the Lord. So I'm not interested in getting into a theological debate about what is truth, nor the differences between Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism. That really wasn't my intention, and it really has no bearing or influence on me anymore, anyway.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:47 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,342,592 times
Reputation: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by shyspider View Post
Okay, Juj, you're taking on that typical Catholic attitude I was talking to DNick about, and frankly I'm not going to put up with it on my end. If you want to be so anti-Protestant in your posts, then you cannot reasonably cry "fowl" when Protestants are anti-Catholic. And honestly, I'm NOT anti-Catholic. I simply do not accept the validity of some of the teachings of the RCC...whether you want to accuse me of disagreeing with Jesus' words or not. I know my relationship with the Lord. So I'm not interested in getting into a theological debate about what is truth, nor the differences between Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism. That really wasn't my intention, and it really has no bearing or influence on me anymore, anyway.
What attitude should I take? If I think folks are going astray, should I just say, oh that's okay. I know you were exposed to the truth but you chose to ignore it. But in the end it just doesn't matter, because we will all be singing Kumbayah around the campfire in heaven some day regardless of what you believe.

Truth and relativism are mutally exclusive. I am not defensive. I am, however, proud of belonging to Jesus's Church and have the peace in knowing that. I just don't understand how protestants can have that same peace because there is always doubt that Luther really screwed up and that their version of Truth may be incorrect because not ONE protestant church or minister has the Jesus given Authority to make the call.

May Christ's peace be with you.
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