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You could literally trip over the hypocrisy when entering any Catholic church! I just don't see how people buy into the garbage they serve. Actually, most Catholics I know don't buy into it, so I really don't understand how they keep the pews full. There are so many options available.
This is something I don't understand myself...given the crimes they've committed against innocent children by hiding the criminals for years within their walls...how can one continually trust and be a part of this organization that claims to be following God?
How can you possibly state you don't know if it's a grave crime or not? Did you read the title to this thread? Did you read the article?
See, that's the problem with Catholics...they don't read and find out the truth for themselves. They just let it all be dictated to them. And then they come off half-cocked with some snotty defensive attitude when other people point out things they don't have the answers for. Catholics are very good at dodging the issues, opting instead to get defensive and demeaning toward those who ask the hard questions. I'm not even Catholic, even though I have seriously considered converting at times in my life. I've opted NOT to convert, partly because of the uncharitable, unloving, snotty attitudes that I've encountered at the hands of Catholics. That, and I can't bring myself to accept the validity of some RCC teachings. They violate my conscience.
Why don't you speak for yourself and address my statement...do you HONESTLY believe our loving Lord Jesus, who gave his life for us, would condemn a woman simply because she wanted to serve him in such a devoted capacity as being a priest? Don't just feed me the line "Well, that's what the church teaches...deal with it." I will NOT just "deal with it". I seek the truth. Do you?
Catholics believe when we don't agree on everything the Church teaches that involves faith and morals, we are out of communion with the Church. To be sure, picking and choosing what you want to believe individually has left the world with the horse pile chaos called protestantism.
What do you know of truth? Every protestant has got his version of the truth. So who has it and who has the authority to decide what it is? Jesus gave that Authority to Peter and His Church. What authority do you have? Nada, nothing. bupkiss, donut, zero, etc. Go start your own church. What's one more protestant church, anyway?
And yes, on the second part because Jesus gave Peter and ultimately who runs the Catholic Church the right to make those decisions. Refer to Matthew 16:19: 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
How can you possibly state you don't know if it's a grave crime or not? Did you read the title to this thread? Did you read the article?
See, that's the problem with Catholics...they don't read and find out the truth for themselves. They just let it all be dictated to them. And then they come off half-cocked with some snotty defensive attitude when other people point out things they don't have the answers for. Catholics are very good at dodging the issues, opting instead to get defensive and demeaning toward those who ask the hard questions. I'm not even Catholic, even though I have seriously considered converting at times in my life. I've opted NOT to convert, partly because of the uncharitable, unloving, snotty attitudes that I've encountered at the hands of Catholics. That, and I can't bring myself to accept the validity of some RCC teachings. They violate my conscience.
Why don't you speak for yourself and address my statement...do you HONESTLY believe our loving Lord Jesus, who gave his life for us, would condemn a woman simply because she wanted to serve him in such a devoted capacity as being a priest? Don't just feed me the line "Well, that's what the church teaches...deal with it." I will NOT just "deal with it". I seek the truth. Do you?
I have read the article. I was giving MY opinion on whether or not it was a grave crime. Should it be punished, yes. But to call it a grave crime, might be a little extreme. But I'm proud of the Church, for taking a hard stance on this. It's a first step in the right direction. Hopefully, they will do the same with priest who teach abortion is okay, and politicians that support it.
And it's funny how you're acting like you claim Catholics to be.
I think the Vatican has stated that putting it in the same article was not meant to mean it's an equal crime. Although I'm a pretty dang conservative Catholic I think the Vatican is, at times, a bit clueless about how it's messages will be heard/understood.
Still ordination of women is against the tradition and teaching of the Church. This isn't because women are inferior or bad or anything silly like that. However Catholic teaching is that women and men are different. That Christ is male, the Twelve Apostles were male, and that to be married to "mother Church" it makes sense to be male. Also from a psychological/evolutionary-psych perspective men have a greater need for a religious role-mode of their sex as men are more often estranged from their fathers than women are from their mothers. That many priests have not been remotely like role models is partly due to human frailty and partly due to a sadly sloppy screening process. (The writings of Popes for centuries are fairly clear only men of good character, and I believe they specifically mention that this means men who will not harm children, be ordained)
I guess in one sense the role of traditional Catholic women was as sisters and mothers, but there is flexibility to what that can mean. I'm not entirely unsympathetic those who want to state more about the strength and perseverance of Mother Mary. And in the New Testament we hear of women who run businesses (Lydia was a seller of purple, which I think means she likely was a wealthy merchant as purple was luxurious, and convert by Paul) or served the community in important ways. There's also the "Virgin Martyrs" who died rather than abandon their vow to Christ and submit to forced marriages, or just sex, to pagan men. Or much later Catherine of Siena criticizing the Pope. I'm not sure how to explain it without causing offense, but I think women are seen more as advisory and teaching than defining or hierarchical. I might have to think on this though as I'm not entirely satisfied with that as an explanation of what I mean.
Dear fellow papist,
I understand all your saying and quoting, and though I've not developed a defintive opinion on the matter, here's another perspective of mine.
A woman was impregnated with God's "spirit", "seed" "fruit"
A woman brought us Christ
A woman was the 1st to "see" the risen Christ
The "Church" has an obvious "maternal" aspect
We, wanting the "spirit" , "fruit";
enter the "woman" hoping to meet "her" Son and leave with the "spirit", and "fruit"
I admit, this may sound really wacky to some. Particularly the non-catholic.
According to the RCC, my children are "the gravest of sins" because they were conceived via IVF. Who cares? The only people they're hurting are those Catholics who buy into their scare tactics and guilt trips. The RCC seems to just get nuttier with time.
don't even start me on their archaic views of life.
I was told by a Catholic woman that giving blood was wrong. After querying whether then receiving blood is wrong, she claimed that yes in the bible it says it is wrong, so therefore wrong.
I then asked her why god would have wanted me to die at the age of 1 due to a issue at birth (surgery at 1 years old to correct problem & I needed a transfusion) ... She could not answer me.
My nephew is an IVF baby - the miracle of science allowed my sister to concieve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waken2
I want to respond so let me first state that I am Catholic (a snotty, defensive, unloving person who dodges issues as per your comments).
The RCC (and most orthodox christian religions) rely heavily on traditions established in the early church and historicallly the apostles and priest were men while most protestant religions have discarded most traditions.
Really? So why can Greek Orthodox priests marry, and not Catholic priests? Somewhere along the line that tradition was broken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waken2
I agree with you that our Lord Jesus probably only cares that we all choose to serve in some capacity but I also suspect He is not concerned with the titles we hold when we do serve.
if he is not concerned with title, then why is some man on earth so concerned and stopping a woman from fully serving her god?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waken2
I accept the use of traditions established by the early church so I accept the fact that women will not be ordained into the priesthood. For others, this is unfair and sexist and they will more than likely be protestant.
I do think that calling this "grave" seems extreme but I suspect the RCC is attempting to avoid splintering of RCC teachings within the RCC.
Whilst they may attempt to avoid splintering, they will continue to lose whole generations in western society.
I want to respond so let me first state that I am Catholic (a snotty, defensive, unloving person who dodges issues as per your comments).
If you want to assume I was making a blanket statement covering all Catholics, that's your choice. My mistake for not inserting the word "some" in certain places of my post. But I'm not referring to all Catholics as "snotty, defensive, unloving, and uncharitable" - just certain ones who first made an unwarranted assumption about my motives when asking some questions in the forums of a different website.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waken2
I accept the use of traditions established by the early church so I accept the fact that women will not be ordained into the priesthood. For others, this is unfair and sexist and they will more than likely be protestant.
I don't think it's unfair or sexist. I simply think it's a travesty to consider it as a grave crime, that's all. Until recently, I respected the RCC's position on this matter. But frankly, it nows sounds as if they've gone outer limits in calling it a "grave crime".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waken2
I do think that calling this "grave" seems extreme but I suspect the RCC is attempting to avoid splintering of RCC teachings within the RCC.
I understand that. But don't you think they could find a different way of reiterating the teaching on the matter without assigning a new level of sin to it? Why the need to do that? They hold the power to excommunicate people for not holding to church teaching on ANY issue or doctrine? Isn't that enough?
Catholics believe when we don't agree on everything the Church teaches that involves faith and morals, we are out of communion with the Church. To be sure, picking and choosing what you want to believe individually has left the world with the horse pile chaos called protestantism.
What do you know of truth? Every protestant has got his version of the truth. So who has it and who has the authority to decide what it is? Jesus gave that Authority to Peter and His Church. What authority do you have? Nada, nothing. bupkiss, donut, zero, etc. Go start your own church. What's one more protestant church, anyway?
And yes, on the second part because Jesus gave Peter and ultimately who runs the Catholic Church the right to make those decisions. Refer to Matthew 16:19: 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Tell you what, Juj. Why don't you tell me why the Catholics and Orthodox, both of which claim to be the original church, have different views about the truth regarding some very crucial doctrines. Then you can get back to me and wallop me about what I know about truth as a Protestant.
I highly suspect an Orthodox would fight you tooth and nail, countering every single point you try to make about how the Catholic church is the true church and that the Orthodox are the ones who broke away.
I have read the article. I was giving MY opinion on whether or not it was a grave crime. Should it be punished, yes. But to call it a grave crime, might be a little extreme. But I'm proud of the Church, for taking a hard stance on this. It's a first step in the right direction. Hopefully, they will do the same with priest who teach abortion is okay, and politicians that support it.
And that's basically all my contention was about this subject...that it's extreme to consider it a grave crime. There is no need to do that when the church already has the power to excommunicate parishioners. It simply needs to warn them to abandon their teachings and repent, or face excommunication. That's all it needs to do...not assign a new degree of sin to something that really isn't a sin, per se.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick
And it's funny how you're acting like you claim Catholics to be.
Only because you first took the defensive attitude in here.
And that's basically all my contention was about this subject...that it's extreme to consider it a grave crime. There is no need to do that when the church already has the power to excommunicate parishioners. It simply needs to warn them to abandon their teachings and repent, or face excommunication. That's all it needs to do...not assign a new degree of sin to something that really isn't a sin, per se.
Only because you first took the defensive attitude in here.
I think, it's more of the teaching against church doctrine that is a grave crime, not so much the teaching being taught. But who knows. I still agree with the punishment, and wish it will spread to other things going on in the church.
Well of course I took a defensive attitude. It's about Catholicism. I'm Catholic. I'm defending her. There for a defensive attitude is required. Not sure how that makes one snooty.
Well of course I took a defensive attitude. It's about Catholicism. I'm Catholic. I'm defending her. There for a defensive attitude is required. Not sure how that makes one snooty.
You're not supposed to get defensive when attacked (although I wouldn't say I'm actually "attacking the RCC"). Jesus taught that if someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer them your other cheek, too. He said to bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who persecute you. He did NOT say "take on a snotty, defensive attitude and look down upon those who disagree with your beliefs".
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don't even start me on their archaic views of life.
