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Old 07-20-2010, 06:06 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,964,060 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post

I have a question...have you ever experienced sitting with the dying, day after day, year after year? Have you ever seen someone bargain with God on their deathbed? Have you? Well, that's where concern comes in. Anxiety, frustration, impatience, anger, hopelessness, paranoia....are stages leading up to death, to that final hour, where death not only approaches, but is imminent! I've never had one (praise be to God), atheist, or not refuse the POWER OF PRAYER before death finally approaches! YES, concern for ones soul is key, do you understand?
Your role at this point, nurse, EMT, doctor?

I'd really prefer that medical professionals concentrate on their skills and training in their chosen profession rather than praying.

 
Old 07-20-2010, 06:08 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,402,405 times
Reputation: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post

the longest post ever.

lol ...
 
Old 07-20-2010, 06:17 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,402,405 times
Reputation: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. It is universalism that impugns the character of God and distorts His nature. God's love in no way stands in the way of Him carrying out the demands of His holiness.

First, translations have nothing to do with it. The word of God in the orginal languages are clear on the matter of Sheol/Hades, and Gehenna. Gehenna being the lake of fire.


Here is a thread of mine on Tartarus, Sheol/Hades, and Gehenna.

www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/1010026-tartarus-sheol-hades-gehenna.html

Second, the reality of the eternal lake of fire is not an abomination. It is a necessary reality because of the justice of God.

The Bible is not founded on the traditions of men. The Bible is God breathed and it is Jesus Himself who spoke of hell more than anyone else did.

Third, I am well aware that you are locked into opposition to the truth concerning the matter and will likely take your false doctrine of universal salvation to the grave with you. I am not going to continue going back and forth on the matter. What I posted on the other post was not for you, but for the benefit of whoever is interested in truth.
Like i said, anyone who believes that torture is Good or justified, especially for eternity, does not know the heart of God.

Of course our posts are not intended to convince one another. I am compassionate to the end that i cannot accept torture as justice and you are not compassionate enough to realize it ...

Jesus never spoke of Hell, that is a Germanic term. He did speak of Gehenna and Hades and Sheol ...

Gehenna is a place on earth and in no place in the bible is it said to be the lake of fire, you assume as much ...

Hades is the Greek literal translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, and both words only mean the grave in the scriptures.

The lake of fire IS NOT an abomination, i agree with you about that, but you interpretation of the lake of fire as being a place where most humans will be tortured by literal fire for everlasting IS an abomination.

Translations have everything to do with it ... Just read the Youngs Literal Translation or the Concordant Literal Translation and you will not find "eternal torment" or "hell" or "for ever and ever" or any thing like them even once in those versions of the bible.



God bless ...
 
Old 07-20-2010, 06:49 PM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,573,974 times
Reputation: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Like i said, anyone who believes that torture is Good or justified, especially for eternity, does not know the heart of God.

Of course our posts are not intended to convince one another. I am compassionate to the end that i cannot accept torture as justice and you are not compassionate enough to realize it ...

Jesus never spoke of Hell, that is a Germanic term. He did speak of Gehenna and Hades and Sheol ...

Gehenna is a place on earth and in no place in the bible is it said to be the lake of fire, you assume as much ...

Hades is the Greek literal translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, and both words only mean the grave in the scriptures.

The lake of fire IS NOT an abomination, i agree with you about that, but you interpretation of the lake of fire as being a place where most humans will be tortured by literal fire for everlasting IS an abomination.

Translations have everything to do with it ... Just read the Youngs Literal Translation or the Concordant Literal Translation and you will not find "eternal torment" or "hell" or "for ever and ever" or any thing like them even once in those versions of the bible.



God bless ...
We are not to lose sight of WHO GOD IS? He definitely did not create us out of his love just so he can torture us forever...when we slip...due to deceptive doctrines...

The deceiver tries to deceive even the elect? Now...would your loving God punish you and I simply because we succumbed to deception not knowing?

What does your conscience dictate...?
 
Old 07-20-2010, 07:51 PM
 
21,857 posts, read 16,696,582 times
Reputation: 8681
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Like i said, anyone who believes that torture is Good or justified, especially for eternity, does not know the heart of God.

Of course our posts are not intended to convince one another. I am compassionate to the end that i cannot accept torture as justice and you are not compassionate enough to realize it ...
Compassion has nothing to do with the reality of the unbelievers eternal punishment in hell. When universalists talk about compassion, they are really saying that they prefer their emotional subjectivity to the reality stated in the word of God.

Quote:
Jesus never spoke of Hell, that is a Germanic term. He did speak of Gehenna and Hades and Sheol ...
Only universalists make an issue out of the use of the word 'hell'. It is an English word used to describe the lake of fire - Gehenna.

The rest of your objections are answered at the bottom.

Quote:
Gehenna is a place on earth and in no place in the bible is it said to be the lake of fire, you assume as much ...

Hades is the Greek literal translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, and both words only mean the grave in the scriptures.

The lake of fire IS NOT an abomination, i agree with you about that, but you interpretation of the lake of fire as being a place where most humans will be tortured by literal fire for everlasting IS an abomination.

Translations have everything to do with it ... Just read the Youngs Literal Translation or the Concordant Literal Translation and you will not find "eternal torment" or "hell" or "for ever and ever" or any thing like them even once in those versions of the bible.



God bless ...
To those who are interested, I supplied in the previous post, the link to my thread that shows that Sheol/Hades does not refer to the grave. But you are going to have to read it in order to see what I'm talking about. Here it is again.

Tartarus, Sheol/Hades, and Gehenna


Translations have nothing to do with the reality of the lake of fire. I said go to the original language. The 'forever and ever' you refer to is 'to the ages of the ages' and is from the emphatic Greek 'eis tous aiona ton aionon', which is the strongest way of expressing eternity in the Greek. The good translators translate it as forever and ever.

Regarding 'eternal torment' what you will find is Revelation 20:10 'and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

they will be tormented - basanisthesontai. Strong's number G928

battered, felt...tormented, pain, straining, torment, tormented .

day and night forever and ever - EIS TOUS AIONA TON AIONON'.

Eis - Strong's number G1519 - into

tous - Strong's Number G3588 - the

aiona - Strong's Number G165 - ages

ton - Strong's number G3588 - of

aionon - strong's number G165 - ages

Some of the most respected Greek lexicographers and scholars of the twentieth century agree that aionios means eternal. Men such as Dr. Alan Gomes of the Talbot School of Theology; the great Bible commentator and thorough student of Greek, R. C. H. Lenski; and Hermann Sasse.

CRI Journal - CRJ0085A

Apologetics Press - The Eternality of Hell [Part I]

http://catholicadventist.com/Papers/Q_Hell_Rev2010.pdf

It is ridiculous to keep pretending that aionos doesn't mean eternal, or that the original Greek doesn't mention the reality of unbelievers being tormented forever.

It is equally ridiculous to deny that Gehenna refers to the lake of fire.

Hell Part 2: The Differences between Hades and the Lake of Fire

Hell - Sheol - Hades - Gehenna - Tartaroo - Lake Of Fire - Outer Darkness - Second Death



Final comment.
 
Old 07-20-2010, 07:56 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,391,186 times
Reputation: 329
Did the RV ever make it in?
 
Old 07-20-2010, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,421,064 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Or that Paul, in preaching the "whole gospel," didn't mention hell once!

Blessings,
brian
Once...Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 2:27.

Twice...Acts 2:31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.

Threee times...Acts 13:35 "Therefore He also says in another Psalm, 'YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.'

Four times...But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1:8.

Five times...Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

Six times...2 Corinthians 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Seven times...As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1:9.

Eight times [warning]...Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.

Nine times...This is a very great evil among all things that are done under the sun, that the same things happen to all men: whereby also the hearts of the children of men are filled with evil, and with contempt while they live, and afterwards they shall be brought down to hell. Ecclesiasties 9:3.

Ten times...Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. Ecclesiasties 9:10

Eleven times...Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

Twelve times [instruction on how to stay out of hell]...Romans 12:11 not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;

Thirteen times [instructions for sating out of hell]...Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,

24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

PUT ON THE NEW SELF!

Ecclesasties 3:

1Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. 5Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6For it is because of these things that the WRATH! of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, 7and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. 8But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. 9Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, 10and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created himó 11a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. 12So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; 13bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. 15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

Amen.

In Christ's love...prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
 
Old 07-20-2010, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,491,032 times
Reputation: 438
I'm as good as my word, although I didn't really want to make it the longest post ever, so I didn't.

Below are partial posts from non-UR folks. I'm just responding to the comments made in the last couple of days from some ETers accusing UR folks of focusing WAY too much on hell.

GOOD NEWS FOR ALL COMING UP~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"You know, many sincere folks cannot comprehend the idea of a Loving God sending anyone to an eternal place of fire and doom. People don't like to hear about hell. Yet, it's the truth of God Himself."

"But I'm here to tell you that if Jesus is not your personal Savior, you are on your way to hell my friend."

If you don't have Jesus today, you are deceived and hell bound.

YES, GOD SAID, hell is real!

This same loving God, is the same God of Wrath!

Your life as a whole, depends on it!

The clear revelation from God concerning hell, and that the person who dies without having received Christ as Savior is headed for it.

Jesus taught about the reality of hell more than anyone else.

There is only one path which leads to eternal salvation. All other paths lead straight to hell.

God's love will not keep Him from ordering into hell those who died without receiving Christ as Savior.

if you don't receive Him as Savior, you are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire.

And all are in a condition of utter ruin and uselessness. Just misery and hopelessness and emptyness. Eternal judgment, eternal torment.

Just admit it.....JESUS SAVES! AND, He SAVE us from something. AND, that "something" has a name. And, it's name is HELL! Eternal separation from His presence....PERIOD!!

The gulf is fixed. The judgment is eternal.

There will be people burning in hell and the lake of fire forever.


GOD HATES WORKER'S OF INIQUITY! GET IT...?! HE HATES THEM!

And the wrath of God will be poured out on an unbelieving world.
And at the end of the Tribulation when Christ has returned to the earth, He will cast into the eternal fire, those unbelievers who have survived to the end of the Tribulation.

Yes, Satan absolutely loves the fact that so many deny his existence and hell's existence.

Hell is a place where the unbeliever spends eternity in utter ruin and uselessness in torment and despair along with every other person who rejected Christ and along with Satan and the angels that followed him when he rebelled against God.

Before being thrown into hell, the unbeliever will acknowledge in fear and as a defeated enemy
of Christ, that He is Lord.

Anyone who dieswithout believing in Christ for salvation is condemned to the lake of fire for all eternity. It doesn't matter how good a life they lived.

Jesus spoke more of hell than anyone else.

It speaks of hell as a place of choice, truth, fair treatment, and lost hope.

The alternative is eternal destruction in the lake of fire...

All willful sinners go to hell. You're either fit for heaven or fit for hell.

He will then be thrown forever into the eternal fire.

And last, but definitely not least....................

You don't have to warn about heaven... most of the world has and will go to hell.


The GOOD NEWS, at last.

Sincere question:

Does this bring you the fruits of the Spirit?? Love, joy, peace, patience??
 
Old 07-20-2010, 09:48 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,771,226 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God's love in no way stands in the way of Him carrying out the demands of His holiness.
Scripture, please.
 
Old 07-20-2010, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,491,032 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Once...Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 2:27.

Twice...Acts 2:31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.

Threee times...Acts 13:35 "Therefore He also says in another Psalm, 'YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.'

Four times...But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1:8.

Five times...Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

Six times...2 Corinthians 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Seven times...As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1:9.

Eight times [warning]...Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.

Nine times...This is a very great evil among all things that are done under the sun, that the same things happen to all men: whereby also the hearts of the children of men are filled with evil, and with contempt while they live, and afterwards they shall be brought down to hell. Ecclesiasties 9:3.

Ten times...Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. Ecclesiasties 9:10

Eleven times...Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

Twelve times [instruction on how to stay out of hell]...Romans 12:11 not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;

Thirteen times [instructions for sating out of hell]...Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,

24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

PUT ON THE NEW SELF!

Ecclesasties 3:

1Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. 5Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6For it is because of these things that the WRATH! of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, 7and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. 8But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. 9Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, 10and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him— 11a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. 12So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; 13bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. 15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

Amen.

In Christ's love...prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.

Umm. I think Luke wrote acts. You were responding to ahigherway's statement about Paul not mentioning hell, weren't you?

And condemned means judged. This has nothing to do with a mythological Greek Hell.

And just what has been disguising itself as light the last 2000 years starting with the VERY paganized Catholic church and the warring "Christian," Constantine?
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