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Old 07-20-2010, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Florida
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[quote=herefornow;15127955]Umm. I think Luke wrote acts. You were responding to ahigherway's statement about Paul not mentioning hell, weren't you? [quote]

I stand corrected. It doesn't matter though..irrelevant...because Jesus!...Matthew!...Mark!...Luke!...John!...Peter! ...Timothy!...Silas!...Jeremiah!
...Isaiah!...Job!...James!...Peter!...Jude!...Abra ham!...Moses!...Isaac!...Jacob!... and every other Prophet and Apostle in the Bible did as well!!! TEACH! ON! HELL!...AS WELL AS PAUL!...Now twist that too!

Paul did mention hell..and I don't want to hear how eternally condemned, or accursed, or separated from Christ forever...or Satan...does not mean hell. Put HELL!!! in any Bible search and see what scriptures you get...YOU GET ALL OF THESE!...and MORE!!!!.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Once......But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1:8.

Twice...Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

Three times...2 Corinthians 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Four times...Seven times...As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1:9.

Five times...[warning]...Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.

Six times...This is a very great evil among all things that are done under the sun, that the same things happen to all men: whereby also the hearts of the children of men are filled with evil, and with contempt while they live, and afterwards they shall be brought down to hell. Ecclesiasties 9:3.
Seven times...Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. Ecclesiasties 9:10

Eight times...Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

Nine times...[instruction on how to stay out of hell]...Romans 12:11 not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;

Ten times...[instructions for sating out of hell]...Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

PUT ON THE NEW SELF!

Ecclesasties 3:

1Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. 5Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6For it is because of these things that the WRATH! of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, 7and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. 8But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. 9Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, 10and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created himó 11a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. 12So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; 13bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. 15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

Amen.

In Christ's love...prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.

 
Old 07-20-2010, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
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[quote=Verna Perry;15128223][quote=herefornow;15127955]Umm. I think Luke wrote acts. You were responding to ahigherway's statement about Paul not mentioning hell, weren't you?
Quote:

I stand corrected. It doesn't matter though..irrelevant...because Jesus!...Matthew!...Mark!...Luke!...John!...Peter! ...Timothy!...Silas!...Jeremiah!
...Isaiah!...Job!...James!...Peter!...Jude!...Abra ham!...Moses!...Isaac!...Jacob!... and every other Prophet and Apostle in the Bible did as well!!! TEACH! ON! HELL!...AS WELL AS PAUL!...Now twist that too!

Paul did mention hell..and I don't want to hear how eternally condemned, or accursed, or separated from Christ forever...or Satan...does not mean hell. Put HELL!!! in any Bible search and see what scriptures you get...YOU GET ALL OF THESE!...and MORE!!!!.......
Yes, Verna you are correct.

In Hebrew a specific word for the grave is kever. When the biblical authors wanted to speak of the grave, they used the word kever. That they did not view kever and Sheol as synonymous is clear from the way these words are used throughout the Old Testament. For example, in Isa. 14:19, the king is cast out of his grave (kever) in order to be thrown into Sheol where the departed spirits can rebuke him (vv.9,10). In this passage, Sheol and kever are opposites, not synonyms. While bodies are unconscious in the grave, those in Sheol are conscious (Isa. 14:4-7; 44:23; Ezek. 31:16; 32:21).

God's judgment upon the wicked does not cease when the wicked die in their sins. Thus some of the spirits in Sheol experience God's anger (Deut. 32:22): According to Moses, the wicked experience the fire of His anger in the "lowest part of Sheol." This passage would make no sense if the wicked are nonexistent and Sheol is the grave.
 
Old 07-21-2010, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,489,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Once...Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 2:27.
Acts is quoting Psalm 16:10. Translated to Grave/Hades from Hell in the KJV. Depends on the version you have.

Acts 2:27: Because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. NIV.

I will say repeat this as often as needed; grave is a LOT different than the Greek mythological Hades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Twice...Acts 2:31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
He did not suffer decay because he was not left to rot in the tomb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Three times...Acts 13:35 "Therefore He also says in another Psalm, 'YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Four times...But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1:8.
Well? Have the Catholics (Rome) preached another gospel? Did her daughters pick it up?

Thankfully, aeonian judgment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Five times...Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
And why would he wished to be accursed to a literal hell for eternity?

He would rather have hung out with his friends and been kept away from the truth, but instead he got knocked down by the light. But, he did not suffer the wrath that was to come in 70 A.D.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Six times...2 Corinthians 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
SO? What has the system been doing for 2000 years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Seven times...As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1:9.
Aeonian judgment. No hell here, Verna.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Eight times [warning]...Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.
????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Nine times...This is a very great evil among all things that are done under the sun, that the same things happen to all men: whereby also the hearts of the children of men are filled with evil, and with contempt while they live, and afterwards they shall be brought down to hell. Ecclesiasties 9:3.
Every single version of the Bible except the Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible translates this "dead."

You read the Catholic Bible?

Ecclesiastes 9:3. NLT. It seems so tragic that everyone under the sun suffers the same fate. That is why people are not more careful to be good. Instead, they choose their own mad course, for they have no hope. There is nothing ahead but death anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Ten times...Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. Ecclesiasties 9:10

So? We go to the grave. Nothing about hell here, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Eleven times...Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
Again.....

Where is the hell, here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Twelve times [instruction on how to stay out of hell]...Romans 12:11 not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;
Wow. Reaching terribly there, Verna. Actually, not even reaching. Just making stuff up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Thirteen times [instructions for sating out of hell]...Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for
Repeat of above. Are you tired?


Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Umm. I think Luke wrote acts. You were responding to ahigherway's statement about Paul not mentioning hell, weren't you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
I stand corrected. It doesn't matter though..irrelevant...because Jesus!...Matthew!...Mark!...Luke!...John!...Peter! ...Timothy!...Silas!...Jeremiah!
...Isaiah!...Job!...James!...Peter!...Jude!...Abra ham!...Moses!...Isaac!...Jacob!... and every other Prophet and Apostle in the Bible did as well!!! TEACH! ON! HELL!...AS WELL AS PAUL!...Now twist that too!

Paul did mention hell..and I don't want to hear how eternally condemned, or accursed, or separated from Christ forever...or Satan...does not mean hell. Put HELL!!! in any Bible search and see what scriptures you get...YOU GET ALL OF THESE!...and MORE!!!!.......
Truth is not irrelevant to me, Verna.

I'll tackle these one at a time.

Abraham: Did not mention hell.

Jesus: Mentioned Gehenna (hell) 12 times, all when talking to the Pharisees.

Matthew: Every! Single! Time! Hell is mentioned in Matthew, Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees about a future national judgment. Hell is translated from Gehenna.

Mark: Hell is mentioned 3 times. All about cutting off hands and feet. Hmm.....

When was the last time you cut off a hand or foot to stay out of hell?

What do you think this verse means?

Luke: Three times. Here, hell is translated from Gehenna, place of the dead/Hades/Grave. Also mentioned in the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. L. Ray Smith - Lazarus and the Rich Man

John: Not once.

Peter: Once. Translated from Tartarus, where the angels are held.

Timothy: Not once.

Silas: ???

Jeremiah: The only thing I remember about Jeremiah is that he said God was VERY ANGRY that anybody thought he wanted people to be burnt.

Isaiah: 5 times. All translated from grave. Depends on translation. KJV=hell. NIV=Grave.

Job: Twice. Grave. Job wanted to go there to get away from God (Job 14:13).

So?

All about Sheol and hell

James: Once. Talking about the tongue. Hmmm.....

Jude: Not once.

Moses: Translated from grave.

Isaac: Nope

Jacob: And, nope.

That about wraps it up for me here. If you have any more, I'll be back tomorrow.

Last edited by herefornow; 07-21-2010 at 01:06 AM..
 
Old 07-21-2010, 01:37 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,285,843 times
Reputation: 869
Verna,
Calm down.
Paul, who preached the "whole gospel," did not mention hell. Not once.
Yes, he talked about judgment, or punishment. But not the pagan hell that is preached in churches today.
I saw that you started looking in other writings, including the OT, in order to justify yourself.

I understand that, according to how you understand scriptures, a person must believe in hell in order to be saved.
But this is not scriptural.

I know that you want to re-write scripture so that you have in big red letters on the first page: Believe in Jesus or go to hell!!!!!
But that's not what God's plan was, apparently.

That's why I don't preach hell. You have to scrape and scrape to come up with about 30 verses throughout the Bible which talk about the grave, and make people scared with them.
But that's not what the Bible is about, imo.

God can do whatever He wants. He made you and me, and everyone else, even the devil and the deep blue sea. (music, anyone?)

So before you go around preaching hell, ask yourself if it wouldn't be a bit more successful preaching Jesus. Jesus taught to the common people, and they heard him gladly.
It was the religious who were offended by him, and it was the religious who were condemned to your "hell" by him, long before any "dirty sinner."

Blessings,
brian
 
Old 07-21-2010, 01:50 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,489,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Yes, Verna you are correct.

In Hebrew a specific word for the grave is kever. When the biblical authors wanted to speak of the grave, they used the word kever. That they did not view kever and Sheol as synonymous is clear from the way these words are used throughout the Old Testament. For example, in Isa. 14:19, the king is cast out of his grave (kever) in order to be thrown into Sheol where the departed spirits can rebuke him (vv.9,10). In this passage, Sheol and kever are opposites, not synonyms. While bodies are unconscious in the grave, those in Sheol are conscious (Isa. 14:4-7; 44:23; Ezek. 31:16; 32:21).

God's judgment upon the wicked does not cease when the wicked die in their sins. Thus some of the spirits in Sheol experience God's anger (Deut. 32:22): According to Moses, the wicked experience the fire of His anger in the "lowest part of Sheol." This passage would make no sense if the wicked are nonexistent and Sheol is the grave.
Yes, they mean two different things, sorta.

(Kever) Qeber/qibrah: Grave, sepulcher, and such. Location and type of grave. Are you going to be buried with your father's, or in a mass grave (pit)?

Sheol: is the CONDITION of the grave. Hidden and dark.

They translated sheol/qeber into hell/grave inconsistently in the Bible, sadly. But, never, not in all the verse translated into Hell from sheol/qeber in the Old Testament do we find a literal fire tormenting people, or even torment, period.

Job wanted to get away from God in the grave.

Job 14:13. If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!


Concerning your verses:


Isaiah 14:4-9. (I'm assuming your focus was verse 9). The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you--all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones--all those who were kings over the nations.

Are kings really rising from their thrones to meet departed spirits? With what bodies are they rising from the thrones with?I've said if before. Lots of flowery language in the Bible.

The next 3 paragraphs are from: http://www.bibletopics.com/BibleStudy/149.htm

The inconsistency of the King James Version can be seen in these verses. Although Sheol appears three times in verses 9, 11 and 15, the KJV translates it twice as "hell" (vv 9 and 15) and once as "the grave" (verse 11). A keen reader must ask oneself, "Why?"

These verses contain a taunting proverb spoken against the king of Babylon, whose sinful pride was soon to be judged by God. In this taunt we find trees speaking (vs. 8), and the dead in Sheol are stirred and awakened from their sleep, and who rise from their thrones to welcome the king on the day of his death. (vs. 9-10).

Although this passage is so far the most picturesque image of Sheol that we have encountered in the Old Testament, the sudden dramatic imagery that we find here should make us cautious. If one were to take the figures and their actions literally, not only would we conclude that there is life in Sheol, but we would also have to conclude that dead kings have thrones in Sheol and that trees can speak! Interestingly, the dead king is being "welcomed" by his peers while he is resting upon a bed of maggots, and covered with a blanket of worms.


Ezekiel 31:16. I made the nations tremble at the sound of its fall when I brought it down to the grave with those who go down to the pit. Then all the trees of Eden, the choicest and best of Lebanon, all the trees that were well-watered, were consoled in the earth below.

???

From: Ezekiel 31:16 I made the nations tremble at the sound of its fall when I brought it down to the grave with those who go down to the pit. Then all the trees of Eden, the choicest and best of Lebanon, all the trees that were well-watered, were consoled The wicked man is often seen flourishing like the cedar, and spreading like the green bay tree, but he soon passes away, and his place is no more found. Let us then mark the perfect man, and behold the upright, for the end of that man is peace.

Ezekiel 32:21. From within the grave the mighty leaders will say of Egypt and her allies, 'They have come down and they lie with the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword.'

The dead are not actually speaking, here. Not at all. LIE down. Grave. Mummies. They lie with the uncircumcised!!! The uncircumcised were not a part of their group. That was NOT a good thing in the Hebrew's eyes. What would being left to rot in a mass grave instead of being buried with their fathers mean to the Hebrews?

Deuteronomy 32:22. For my anger blazes forth like fire and burns to the depths of the grave. It devours the earth and all its crops and ignites the foundations of the mountains.

Is it really devouring the whole earth? ALL the crops? Are the base of the mountains on fire? What is going on here?

More flowery language?

What happens when God kindled his fire in the Old Testament? Confusion? Sickness? Sorrow? Death? Destruction? Mass destruction? Mass graves? Unmarked?

Below from: All about Sheol and hell

The KJV translates "tachtiy Sheol" here as "the lowest hell". Do Evangelicals really believe that there are different "levels" in their "hell"? Catholics might use this translation to support their doctrine of different levels of suffering in their Purgatory, but Evangelicals using the KJV are left pondering how many "hells" they have; and whether in "the lowest hell" the damned will find less torment than in the highest hell?

Actually, the truth is that "tachtiy Sheol" is a reference to the roots of the mountains. The second half of this verse is a repetitive clarification of the first half. "Tachtiy Sheol" (the lowest hell) is clarified as "the foundations of the mountains."

Last edited by herefornow; 07-21-2010 at 02:01 AM..
 
Old 07-21-2010, 02:10 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,418,309 times
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No matter what you say, hell is mentioned at least 110 times throughout the Bible....explaining how the wicked unbeliever will end up there.

It's absolutely pointless to ever discuss this with you again...I am done.

Live your lives the way you choose...you all have been warned by me ...your blood is not on my hands...so I leave it here.

Have a happy life.
 
Old 07-21-2010, 02:23 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,758,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
No matter what you say, hell is mentioned at least 110 times throughout the Bible....explaining how the wicked unbeliever will end up there.

It's absolutely pointless to ever discuss this with you again...I am done.

Live your lives the way you choose...you all have been warned by me ...your blood is not on my hands...so I leave it here.

Have a happy life.
Verna,

I believe in hell. I just don't believe in the typical version/interpretation of hell. This world is a living hell in many parts of the globe, most especially where people are being bombed day and night and children are ravaged by war and famine. And there are powerful, rich countries responsible for most of this misery. And God certainly will judge. Yes indeed, God will judge.

Happy life to you, too for as long as circumstances permit, though I see a lot of really bad stuff in America's future, particularly concerning judgement.

Heartsong
 
Old 07-21-2010, 02:28 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,489,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
This world is a living hell in many parts of the globe, most especially where people are being bombed day and night and children are ravaged by war and famine. And there are powerful, rich countries responsible for most of this misery.

Heartsong
 
Old 07-21-2010, 03:15 AM
 
Location: God's Kingdom !!
122 posts, read 153,411 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
No matter what you say, hell is mentioned at least 110 times throughout the Bible....explaining how the wicked unbeliever will end up there.

It's absolutely pointless to ever discuss this with you again...I am done.

Live your lives the way you choose...you all have been warned by me ...your blood is not on my hands...so I leave it here.

Have a happy life.
Amen......

Ezekiel 3:19
Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

Ezekiel 33:9
Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

..... if God has laid the burden on ones heart to go forth and warn those of their unbelief, sin, to turn and repent, that one is too obey the call, regardless !!
Once warned it is now in the heart of the one warned !!!
You have obeyed God, done according to what the scripture teaches, Amen !!

God Bless !!
 
Old 07-21-2010, 03:22 AM
 
Location: New England
32,221 posts, read 21,094,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
No matter what you say, hell is mentioned at least 110 times throughout the Bible....explaining how the wicked unbeliever will end up there.

It's absolutely pointless to ever discuss this with you again...I am done.

Live your lives the way you choose...you all have been warned by me ...your blood is not on my hands...so I leave it here.

Have a happy life.
Verna i couldn't care less if it's mentioned 500 times . The scriptures testify of Jesus (John 5 :39) , not of sin death and hell .

The fact that God is love (1 John 4 : 8) blows hell out of the water. He is victorious over all your message stands for

And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Col 2 : 15

This verse below confirms he's blown the devil, death,sin and hades out of the water

14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement forf the sins of the people. 18Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

This is why Jesus is wonderful . This is why the message of Jesus our Savior is wonderful.

Last edited by pcamps; 07-21-2010 at 03:50 AM..
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