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Old 07-21-2010, 06:18 AM
 
38 posts, read 42,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary.

Matthew 10:28 shows that the soul survives the death of the body.

Angels are immortal. They were created before the creation of the world. Job 38:4-7 and they exist throughout all eternity future.

Annhilationism and universalism are two false doctrines which are adhered to by many who can not stomach the reality of what the Bible teaches concerning hell. But reality is what it is. And the reality is that the unbeliever will exist eternally in hell in torment.

Final comment on this subject on this thread.
All the verses you have quoted did not once indicate that man is created immortal.

Matt 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Clearly the above verse shows that God is able to destroy both the soul and the body in hell. He will! This means that the soul and the body will die, perish, be devoured, slayed, consumed...

In believing ET, YOU HAVE GONE AGAINST the Lord God by saying angels are immortal, when the Holy Spirit mentioned in around first century AD (a time later than that which was mentioned in Job 38: 4 -7) in 1 Tim 6:16 that ONLY THE LORD JESUS Himself is immortal. It only needs to be mentioned once in the scriptures for it to be true.

All men and all angels are created mortal. They must rely on God for continual sustenance to have eternal life. Angels and men cannot live independent of God. If man is immortal, why is there a pure river of life and tree of life at the throne of God? Are they only for decoration? No, they represent the sustaining power of God. If the believer does not partake of it, he will die. If a believer needs to partake of the river and tree of life to live eternally, the believer is not immortal but has everlasting life through the Lord Jesus Christ by His continual sustenance.

Rev 22:1 - And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Thus like UR, ET is a false teaching.

 
Old 07-21-2010, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,425,064 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveLadybugs! View Post
Amen......

Ezekiel 3:19
Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

Ezekiel 33:9
Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

..... if God has laid the burden on ones heart to go forth and warn those of their unbelief, sin, to turn and repent, that one is too obey the call, regardless !!
Once warned it is now in the heart of the one warned !!!
You have obeyed God, done according to what the scripture teaches, Amen !!

God Bless !!
Thank you LoveLadyBugs...God Bless.
 
Old 07-21-2010, 09:21 AM
 
21,925 posts, read 16,721,895 times
Reputation: 8732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Presby View Post
All the verses you have quoted did not once indicate that man is created immortal.

Matt 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Clearly the above verse shows that God is able to destroy both the soul and the body in hell. He will! This means that the soul and the body will die, perish, be devoured, slayed, consumed...
As I have said many times on this forum, the English word destroy is the Greek word Apollumi and does not mean cessation of existence.

The following is from the P-R-E-C-E-P-T*** A-U-S-T-I-N website

Perish (622) (Apollumi from apo = away from or wholly + olethros = state of utter ruin <> ollumi = to destroy <> root of apollyon (Re 9:11) = destroyer) means to destroy uttery but not caused to cease to exist.

Apollumi as it relates to men, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well-being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed. To render useless. The gospel promises everlasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence).

Apollumi then has the basic meaning of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended prupose.

Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown nto hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothiingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth'' (Mt. 13:42,50).

( Romans 2:9-12 Commentary )
----------------------------------------------------

The soul of the unbeliever is put into hades at death. At the end of the Millennium his body is resurrected and he stands before Jesus at the Great White Throne to be sentenced to the lake of fire forever. This is made clear in Revelation 20:11-15.

Daniel 12:2 makes it clear that the unrighteous are resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt. ''And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Both the soul and body of the unbeliever are cast into the lake of fire where they exist in disgrace and everlasting contempt, in a state of ruin and eternal uselessness, in conscious torment.

John 5:28-29 and Acts 24:15 also speak of the resurrection of the wicked.

Once resurrected, the body does not die again. The second death of the lake of fire is simply the spiritual death of the unbeliever, which simply means separation from God. It means to have no relationship with God.

Death means SEPARATION. Even physical death is only the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death is separation from God in time, and the second death is separation from God for all eternity future. Revelation 20:11-15.
Quote:
In believing ET, YOU HAVE GONE AGAINST the Lord God by saying angels are immortal, when the Holy Spirit mentioned in around first century AD (a time later than that which was mentioned in Job 38: 4 -7) in 1 Tim 6:16 that ONLY THE LORD JESUS Himself is immortal. It only needs to be mentioned once in the scriptures for it to be true.

All men and all angels are created mortal. They must rely on God for continual sustenance to have eternal life. Angels and men cannot live independent of God. If man is immortal, why is there a pure river of life and tree of life at the throne of God? Are they only for decoration? No, they represent the sustaining power of God. If the believer does not partake of it, he will die. If a believer needs to partake of the river and tree of life to live eternally, the believer is not immortal but has everlasting life through the Lord Jesus Christ by His continual sustenance.
The angels are immortal. They do not have flesh and blood bodies that are subject to death. Luke 20:36 'for neither can they die anymore, for they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Only God (and Jesus Christ is God) possesses eternal life by nature. That is, as a part of His essence. God gives His eternal life to those who receive Jesus as Savior. But that means that the believer is qualified to live in the presence of God forever. It does not mean that those who reject Christ don't live forever. God has made the human soul immortal, and the soul of the unbeliever which resides in his resurrected body (see Daniel 12:2) lives forever away from the presence of God in the lake of fire.

Further, as of this time, only Jesus Christ in His humanity has been resurrected and so at this time only His body is immortal. Once the resurrection of both believers and unbelievers takes place, their bodies will be immortal as well.

Everyone lives forever. Your only choice is where you will spend eternity. Life separated from God is called the second death. It is conscious existence in the lake of fire - hell. Eternal life is an eternal relationship with God in His presence.

Quote:
Rev 22:1 - And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
The purpose of the tree of life mentioned in Revelation 2:7 and chapter 22 is not to enable believers to go on living eternally. They already have eternal liife. It was given to them at the moment they believed in Christ for salvation. And their bodies will have already been resurrected, already made immortal.

Eating of the tree of life in the eternal state is a privilege, a special blessing of the eternal state for those believers who overcame, who advanced to spiritual maturity during their time on the earth.

Revelation 2:7 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes (keep His commandments), that they might have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.


There are degrees of blessing in the eternal state. Not everyone will have the same blessings and privileges. Most believers in the eternal state will be 'paupers' so to speak, and some will be 'princes'. In other word, most believers will have very little other than their resurrected bodies, while some believers will have great rewards, decorations, blessings and privileges based upon their advance to sprirtual maturity and spiritual production during their time on this earth. Eating from the tree of life will be one of those privileges.

As a last word, as is shown in Revelation 19:20 compared with Revelation 20:7-10, the beast and the false prophet will have already been in the lake of fire, alive and conscious and in torment, for one thousand years before Satan himself is thrown in there with them.

The false doctrine of annihilationism has NO basis in reality.

Readers may refer back to post #121.

Last edited by Mike555; 07-21-2010 at 09:48 AM..
 
Old 07-21-2010, 11:42 AM
 
1,079 posts, read 771,923 times
Reputation: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Jesus spoke in parables, yet fundamentalists interpret his words literally. And it has been proven time and again the aion and aionios at least do not necessarily always mean everlasting(and in my understanding never do).

Who believes evil is everlasting and who believes it will cease to exist? Who believes the power of evil is greater than the power of Good to influence creation? Who believes Satan will have a greater victory in deceiving the world than Christ will in saving it?

What are the fruits of the leaders of the church who taught ET, but imprisoning others who disagreed with their teachings and tortured and murdered them, burning them alive? What are the fruits of them but war in the name of Christ?

If you ask me, fundamentalists misunderstand Jesus teachings just like the pharisees did, because of the hardness of their hearts and because they are blinded by the veil of the old testament ...
This is so good, so precise, so to the point.

I believe christians who still believe in ET will never grow in the spirit, they are stuck on milk and can't graduate to meat.

I know first hand. Been there, done that. Have a lot of christian friends who have been christians for decades still believing in ET. No wonder they all are going through a crisis of faith, everyone of them.

If the foundation is faulty....
 
Old 07-21-2010, 05:07 PM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,577,152 times
Reputation: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Jesus spoke in parables, yet fundamentalists interpret his words literally. And it has been proven time and again the aion and aionios at least do not necessarily always mean everlasting(and in my understanding never do).

Who believes evil is everlasting and who believes it will cease to exist? Who believes the power of evil is greater than the power of Good to influence creation? Who believes Satan will have a greater victory in deceiving the world than Christ will in saving it?

What are the fruits of the leaders of the church who taught ET, but imprisoning others who disagreed with their teachings and tortured and murdered them, burning them alive? What are the fruits of them but war in the name of Christ?

If you ask me, fundamentalists misunderstand Jesus teachings just like the pharisees did, because of the hardness of their hearts and because they are blinded by the veil of the old testament ...
It took me awhile...with "heartfelt" prayers that The Almighty God gives me the wisdom to discern as to why HE seemed so exact and harsh in his "law" in the old testament.

I began to see that in His divine plan...there was no room for error...particularly in ensuring that the "bloodline" be preserved and purified for the coming of the Son of Man...The Messiah...The LORD Christ Jesus...the sinless one!

The ultimate sacrifice for the sin of mankind had to be without blemish...purified bloodline 7x70 times. The Holy Temple of God...

"IT FINISHED" Jesus uttered on the cross...

"I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA"

“A new commandment give I unto you that ye love one another, even as I have loved you” (John 13. 34).

The Almighty God loved "US" so...


Last edited by ans57; 07-21-2010 at 06:25 PM..
 
Old 07-21-2010, 05:39 PM
 
66 posts, read 64,312 times
Reputation: 26
salvation is the end of faith's obedient journey.
 
Old 07-21-2010, 07:28 PM
 
Location: New England
32,260 posts, read 21,131,193 times
Reputation: 2283
Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
There IS more to "written words" than meets the eye...
Ans57 i am in need of the blessing of the Lord daily in my life , i truely am blessed of the Lord in my life , in my going in and coming out , i hope you see the need of the blessing of the Lord in your daily life
 
Old 07-21-2010, 07:30 PM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,577,152 times
Reputation: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Ans57 i am in need of the blessing of the Lord daily in my life , i truely am blessed of the Lord in my life , in my going in and coming out , i hope you see the need of the blessing of the Lord in your daily life
Always...Agape...
 
Old 07-21-2010, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,493,513 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As I have said many times on this forum, the English word destroy is the Greek word Apollumi and does not mean cessation of existence.


Perish (622) (Apollumi from apo = away from or wholly + olethros = stateof utter ruin <> ollumi = to destroy <> root of apollyon (Re 9:11) = destroyer) means to destroy uttery but not caused to cease to exist.


Apollumi then has the basic meaning of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended prupose.
Destroy, destruction, destroyed/perish, perishing, perished/lose and lost all come from ONE WORD, appolumi.

It is interesting how many times in the Bible something is destroyed, lost, perished, etc. but is found, made alive again, recovered, and/or made whole again.

"O Israel, you have DESTROYED (apollumi) yourself; but in Me is your help… I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death…" (Hosea 13:7 & 14)!

I once was lost (apollumi; lost, perished, destroyed], but now am found.

"The righteous PERISH (apollumi), and no man lays it to heart…" (Isa. 57:1)

We ALL, every single one of us on this planet, at one time or another, are lost/destroyed. The ones called and chosen in this life are judged now. The rest will be judged at the white throne.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown nto hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothiingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth'' (Mt. 13:42,50).
Nobody said it's a Hindu Nirvana. And, you are mixing the weeping and gnashing of teeth, which the Jews did before and during 70 A.D., with something that you believe happens to billions of lost and confused Gentiles after death. The Jews saw the 'others' sitting with Jesus and gnashed their teeth at him. I'm also sure there was a lot of weeping going on when the temple fell in 70 A.D.

Acts 7:54 And hearing these things, they were cut to the hearts, and did gnash the teeth at him.

Verses like Matthew 13:42 remind me of Deuteronomy 4:20~~~~~~~~~

Matthew 13:42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Deuteronomy 4:20. But the Lord has taken you out of the flaming fire, out of Egypt, to be to him the people of his heritage, as you are today.

OR

Deuteronomy 4:20. But the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of his own inheritance, as you are this day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The soul of the unbeliever is put into hades at death. At the end of the Millennium his body is resurrected and he stands before Jesus at the Great White Throne to be sentenced to the lake of fire forever. This is made clear in Revelation 20:11-15.
I don't believe in the Greek mythological Hades. I'm a Christian, not a pagan. There is not a single verse in the Bible to back you up, talking about compartments and such. Just the ONE parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

Is the LOF a different kind of fire than the one the believers go through?

God's spirit is like fire. He is a consuming fire. He has messengers of fire.

AND!!!!

EVERYONE shall be salted with FIRE," and "EVERY MAN’S WORK ... shall be revealed by FIRE."

The first five examples given in Strong’s ARE examples of figurative usage of the word fire. And of the 500+ times the word 'fire' is used in the Bible, hundreds of times the word 'fire' is used in a figurative or symbolic sense.

Good series to study: http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Daniel 12:2 makes it clear that the unrighteous are resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt. ''And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Yes, some will rise to judgment, and some will rise to, "Welcome, my good and faithful servant."

"Everlasting" is used in the Bible to mean anything but eternal. Age, is more like it. And, we need to remember that God is reconciling things in heaven and earth to himself. We need to study the scriptures in light of that.

Colossians 1:20. Through Him (Christ) to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Both the soul and body of the unbeliever are cast into the lake of fire where they exist in disgrace and everlasting contempt, in a state of ruin and eternal uselessness, in conscious torment.
Everlasting. How long is that? In the Bible it means a few days, a few years, etc. The only things that is eternal is God.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Once resurrected, the body does not die again. The second death of the lake of fire is simply the spiritual death of the unbeliever, which simply means separation from God. It means to have no relationship with God.

Death means SEPARATION. Even physical death is only the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death is separation from God in time, and the second death is separation from God for all eternity future. Revelation 20:11-15.
Eternity future doesn't make any sense.

And, the second death does not hurt the believer. Will believers be "standing" in the lake of fire with the unbelievers? The angels are tormented in the lamb's presence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The angels are immortal. They do not have flesh and blood bodies that are subject to death. Luke 20:36 'for neither can they die anymore, for they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
I'm assuming God can destroy anything he wants, even spirits. So....

Anyhow, the angels were supposed to be reconciled, or this verse doesn't make any sense. What in the heavens needs reconciled?

Colossians 1:20. Through Him (Christ) to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Only God (and Jesus Christ is God) possesses eternal life by nature. That is, as a part of His essence. God gives His eternal life to those who receive Jesus as Savior. But that means that the believer is qualified to live in the presence of God forever. It does not mean that those who reject Christ don't live forever. God has made the human soul immortal, and the soul of the unbeliever which resides in his resurrected body (see Daniel 12:2) lives forever away from the presence of God in the lake of fire.
God is everywhere? Is he not? How can they be banished from his presence, exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As a last word, as is shown in Revelation 19:20 compared with Revelation 20:7-10, the beast and the false prophet will have already been in the lake of fire, alive and conscious and in torment, for one thousand years before Satan himself is thrown in there with them.
The beast is clearly a political system. Revelation mimics Daniel, both prophetic books, where the Beasts are political systems.

False prophet=false religion.

The Beast can be: This word is used figuratively of an infuriated multitude (1 Corinthians 15:32; Acts 19:29; Comp. Psalm 22:12, 16; Ecclesiastes 3:18; Isaiah 11:6-8), and of wicked men (2 Peter 2:12). The four beasts of Daniel 7:3, 17, 23 represent four kingdoms or kings. Beast (243 Occurrences)
 
Old 07-21-2010, 08:04 PM
 
21,925 posts, read 16,721,895 times
Reputation: 8732
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Destroy, destruction, destroyed/perish, perishing, perished/lose and lost all come from ONE WORD, appolumi.

It is interesting how many times in the Bible something is destroyed, lost, perished, etc. but is found, made alive again, recovered, and/or made whole again.

"O Israel, you have DESTROYED (apollumi) yourself; but in Me is your help… I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death…" (Hosea 13:7 & 14)!

I once was lost (apollumi; lost, perished, destroyed], but now am found.

"The righteous PERISH (apollumi), and no man lays it to heart…" (Isa. 57:1)

We ALL, every single one of us on this planet, at one time or another, are lost/destroyed. The ones called and chosen in this life are judged now. The rest will be judged at the white throne.



Nobody said it's a Hindu Nirvana. And, you are mixing the weeping and gnashing of teeth, which the Jews did before and during 70 A.D., with something that you believe happens to billions of lost and confused Gentiles after death. The Jews saw the 'others' sitting with Jesus and gnashed their teeth at him. I'm also sure there was a lot of weeping going on when the temple fell in 70 A.D.

Acts 7:54 And hearing these things, they were cut to the hearts, and did gnash the teeth at him.

Verses like Matthew 13:42 remind me of Deuteronomy 4:20~~~~~~~~~

Matthew 13:42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Deuteronomy 4:20. But the Lord has taken you out of the flaming fire, out of Egypt, to be to him the people of his heritage, as you are today.

OR

Deuteronomy 4:20. But the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of his own inheritance, as you are this day.



I don't believe in the Greek mythological Hades. I'm a Christian, not a pagan. There is not a single verse in the Bible to back you up, talking about compartments and such. Just the ONE parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

Is the LOF a different kind of fire than the one the believers go through?

God's spirit is like fire. He is a consuming fire. He has messengers of fire.

AND!!!!

EVERYONE shall be salted with FIRE," and "EVERY MAN’S WORK ... shall be revealed by FIRE."

The first five examples given in Strong’s ARE examples of figurative usage of the word fire. And of the 500+ times the word 'fire' is used in the Bible, hundreds of times the word 'fire' is used in a figurative or symbolic sense.

Good series to study: http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html



Yes, some will rise to judgment, and some will rise to, "Welcome, my good and faithful servant."

"Everlasting" is used in the Bible to mean anything but eternal. Age, is more like it. And, we need to remember that God is reconciling things in heaven and earth to himself. We need to study the scriptures in light of that.

Colossians 1:20. Through Him (Christ) to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.




Everlasting. How long is that? In the Bible it means a few days, a few years, etc. The only things that is eternal is God.




Eternity future doesn't make any sense.

And, the second death does not hurt the believer. Will believers be "standing" in the lake of fire with the unbelievers? The angels are tormented in the lamb's presence.



I'm assuming God can destroy anything he wants, even spirits. So....

Anyhow, the angels were supposed to be reconciled, or this verse doesn't make any sense. What in the heavens needs reconciled?

Colossians 1:20. Through Him (Christ) to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.



God is everywhere? Is he not? How can they be banished from his presence, exactly?



The beast is clearly a political system. Revelation mimics Daniel, both prophetic books, where the Beasts are political systems.

False prophet=false religion.

The Beast can be: This word is used figuratively of an infuriated multitude (1 Corinthians 15:32; Acts 19:29; Comp. Psalm 22:12, 16; Ecclesiastes 3:18; Isaiah 11:6-8), and of wicked men (2 Peter 2:12). The four beasts of Daniel 7:3, 17, 23 represent four kingdoms or kings. Beast (243 Occurrences)
Readers may simply refer back to my posts #121 and 183. Most Christians have sense enough to know that the Bible clearly teaches that unbelievers will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Universalist's reject what the Bible says about it.


For those who would like to learn some basic Bible doctrine so that they can come to an understanding of the truth concerning God and His plan for man, here are a couple of good places to learn...

Fundamentals : Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX

Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ
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