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Old 07-17-2010, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,491,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
Do you believe Jesus was a man of His word? That He said what He meant, and meant what He said? Yes, no? Well, here's some more of what HE said!!
19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


You see verses 27 and 28? I pray thee therefore, father that thou would send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren: that he may TESTIFY UNTO THEM, LEST THEY COME ALSO INTO THIS PLACE OF TORMENT! (emphasis added, mines)

No, not fear-mongering, my friend, doing what the Lord has commission ALL OF US to do......love one another, in TRUTH!! And, in doing so, I cannot lie to you! You understand? Yes, it all does boils down to believing......... Who are you going to believe? Or, you can risk finding out for YOURSELF, just like the "rich man? Hmmm?


Betsey

Here is a link to a very good post (post 154, mine) that explains this parable in a most understandable way.

Mistranslations!!

 
Old 07-17-2010, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,491,854 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again. Jesus spoke of hell more than anyone else.

If a person does not believe in Jesus Christ before they depart this life, Jesus will be their judge and order them into the eternal fire as per
You have been given the facts. You have been given the truth. Your choice is to believe it or reject it. Final comment.
(Non-universalist link FROM an evangelical site which makes a simple case against traditional versions of hell.All about Sheol and hell)

I hate being lied to. You should know that by now, Mike. And I hate this lie more than any other in the world; Jesus spoke of hell more than anyone else.

Jesus did NOT, and I repeat, DID NOT speak of hell more than anyone else!!! And I will pop in and reply with the REAL truth anytime I see this falsehood being spread.

Here, for all to see, is what hell really is: Translated from 4 other words that have NOTHING whatsoever to do with a literal eternal fire for Satan and cohorts, who are SPIRIT, no less. Honestly!

Sheol; 31 times.

Hades; 10 times.

(and I personally think Sheol was simply the grave and did not in any way tie into the mythological Greek Hades)

Gehenna; 12 times. (Jerusalem garbage dump)

Tartarus; ONCE! (where angels are hanging out)


When Jesus used the term “hell fire” he was ALWAYS talking to the JEWS who were going to be destroyed in 70 A.D. It was a national judgment that occurred almost 2000 years ago!

Paul never talked about hell, and he wrote a good chunk of the New Testament.

Why?

Here are a couple more good links for those that are interested in learning more.

Jesus' Teaching on Hell

L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire - Part 16-A
 
Old 07-17-2010, 07:19 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,642 posts, read 30,256,059 times
Reputation: 30184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again. Jesus spoke of hell more than anyone else. By your twisted logic that would make Jesus unloving.




To the contrary. NO ONE can pay the price. Those who are in a debtors prison are unable to pay the penalty. That is the point Jesus was making (Matthew 5:26). He was giving a warning to make everything right before it is too late. Before the judgment (before you die) there is a chance (Hebrew 9:27); after it there is nothing but unending payment.



I said quite specifically that love has nothing to do with eternal salvation. I said, again, quite specifically, that the only issue in eternal salvation is faith in Christ.




Yes. It does. Fatally wrong. All who reject what the word of God says concerning salvation remain under eternal condemnation and will spend all eternity in hell unless they place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.



There is only one path which leads to eternal salvation. All other paths lead straight to hell. Those who have not believed in Christ for salvation are already condemned. Refer back to Betsey's original post.






Betsey was doing what all Christians should be doing. She was warning of the reality of what awaits those who depart this life without Christ.

Love does not save anyone. Faith in Jesus Christ does. The spiritual life of the believer AFTER salvation is a completely different issue than the moment of salvation which is the result of placing your trust in Christ.




We are born in a state of total depravity and only by the grace of God through faith in Christ as a result of the work of Christ on the Cross can any be saved.

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

God's love will not keep Him from ordering into hell those who died without receiving Christ as Savior.

Nor will anyones love for anyone else keep anyone out of hell. Some of the most loving people in the world will be in hell for all eternity.



Christ is not a principle. And no one can become Christ. The title Christ refers to the fact that Jesus is the annointed One. He is the Messiah, the Savior.




What I meant, is that in order to be eternally saved, one must place their trust, their faith, in Jesus Christ for salvation. In the true Jesus Christ. Not a false Jesus of one's own imagination.

If a person does not believe in Jesus Christ before they depart this life, Jesus will be their judge and order them into the eternal fire as per Matthew 25:41,46; Revelation 20:11-15.

No one is saved apart from faith in Christ.

Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

You have been given the facts. You have been given the truth. Your choice is to believe it or reject it. Final comment.
Great post Mike, but you're talking to someone who openly admits to not being a Christian and does not follow the Bible.
 
Old 07-17-2010, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,818,117 times
Reputation: 581
Listen to the Word of God people, those that have committed sins can only be chastised until they have paid their due:

Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
 
Old 07-17-2010, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,309 posts, read 5,584,295 times
Reputation: 939
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
That is not true. People, with their vile imaginations and preconceived notions of an unloving God, projected those interpretations into Jesus' parables instead of realizing the spiritual nature of what He was saying. I know what you'll say - "To the contrary, " but you won't be able to come back and reply with a verse that says, "If you don't believe in me after I die, you will be set on fire and burn forever." You'll probably just quote that verse in a parable about the devil and his angels, without regard to the fact that he says it's BECAUSE they did not do good to "the least of these," or verses in Revelation that is completely full of symbolism.

Can you share a verse that is NOT in a parable and is NOT a prophesy where Jesus warns people to believe in Him or BE BURNED FOR ETERNITY? I didn't ask about perishing, by the way. Perish does not equal being set on fire.

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (Isaiah 26:19)


And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12: 2)


Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto the RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION. (John 5: 28-29)


And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25: 46)



And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:12-15)


If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. (Mark 9:43)




By the way, why are you asking for Bible verses, if you believe the Bible contradicts itself? For what purpose? So you can continually mock and scoff at them? Carry on.......
 
Old 07-17-2010, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,491,854 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (Isaiah 26:19)


And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12: 2)


Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto the RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION. (John 5: 28-29)


And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25: 46)



And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:12-15)


If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. (Mark 9:43)




By the way, why are you asking for Bible verses, if you believe the Bible contradicts itself? For what purpose? So you can continually mock and scoff at them? Carry on.......
Damnation is JUDGMENT.

And, Betsey, when was the last time a Christian cut off their hand to stay out of "hell?"

"Bob! Why are you missing a hand?" "Oh," says Bob. "That." "Well, ummm." "Jesus said to cut it off." "I was about to do something terrible, but then I remembered that verse." "So, I cut off my hand." "Now I can't work, my family is going to lose the house, my kids are going to have to go to daycare, and I will have to be fit for a prosthetic." "Which costs a lot of money." "But it's worth it." "I don't have to be set on fire for eternity." "Whew." "I don't know if insurance covers it, but maybe the church will start a fund-drive."



Do you think it MIGHT mean something else?
 
Old 07-17-2010, 08:14 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,771,625 times
Reputation: 264
BHFT in blue.

Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow
That is not true. People, with their vile imaginations and preconceived notions of an unloving God, projected those interpretations into Jesus' parables instead of realizing the spiritual nature of what He was saying. I know what you'll say - "To the contrary, " but you won't be able to come back and reply with a verse that says, "If you don't believe in me after I die, you will be set on fire and burn forever." You'll probably just quote that verse in a parable about the devil and his angels, without regard to the fact that he says it's BECAUSE they did not do good to "the least of these," or verses in Revelation that is completely full of symbolism.

Can you share a verse that is NOT in a parable and is NOT a prophesy where Jesus warns people to believe in Him or BE BURNED FOR ETERNITY? I didn't ask about perishing, by the way. Perish does not equal being set on fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (Isaiah 26:19)

SAYS NOTHING ABOUT BEING BURNED FOR ETERNITY.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12: 2)

SAYS NOTHING ABOUT BEING BURNED FOR ETERNITY.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto the RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION. (John 5: 28-29)

SAYS NOTHING ABOUT BEING BURNED FOR ETERNITY.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25: 46)

SAYS NOTHING ABOUT BEING BURNED FOR ETERNITY.


And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:12-15)

REVELATION IS PROPHESY AND FULL OF SYMBOLISM. It's up to you to decide if you are going to put your faith in your ability, or someone else's ability, to decipher Revelation, or put your faith in the love, mercy, and holy character of the true and living God. I have faith that the Lamb is not a baby sheep in Rev., and the lake of fire is not a literal fire.


If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. (Mark 9:43)

Hell in this verse is Gehenna, the garbage dump in Jerusalem.


By the way, why are you asking for Bible verses, if you believe the Bible contradicts itself? For what purpose? So you can continually mock and scoff at them? Carry on.......
I would ask you to show me where I've said the Bible contradicts itself, but you can't do it. You should not accuse people of saying things they did not say.
 
Old 07-17-2010, 08:14 PM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,575,023 times
Reputation: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Damnation is JUDGMENT.

And, Betsey, when was the last time a Christian cut off their hand to stay out of "hell?"

"Bob! Why are you missing a hand?" "Oh," says Bob. "That." "Well, ummm." "Jesus said to cut it off." "I was about to do something terrible, but then I remembered that verse." "So, I cut off my hand. "Now I can't work, my family is going to lose the house, my kids are going to have to go to daycare, and I will have to be fit for a prosthetic." "Which costs a lot of money." "But it's worth it." "I don't have to be set on fire for eternity." "Whew." "I don't know if insurance covers it, but maybe the church will start a fund-drive."



Do you think it MIGHT mean something else?
 
Old 07-17-2010, 08:16 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,771,625 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Damnation is JUDGMENT.

And, Betsey, when was the last time a Christian cut off their hand to stay out of "hell?"

"Bob! Why are you missing a hand?" "Oh," says Bob. "That." "Well, ummm." "Jesus said to cut it off." "I was about to do something terrible, but then I remembered that verse." "So, I cut off my hand. "Now I can't work, my family is going to lose the house, my kids are going to have to go to daycare, and I will have to be fit for a prosthetic." "Which costs a lot of money." "But it's worth it." "I don't have to be set on fire for eternity." "Whew." "I don't know if insurance covers it, but maybe the church will start a fund-drive."



Do you think it MIGHT mean something else?
Great point herefornow. I'm glad you addressed it because I didn't have the energy! Many people pick and choose what to believe is to be taken literally, while claiming it is all literal.
 
Old 07-17-2010, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,491,854 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Great point herefornow. I'm glad you addressed it because I didn't have the energy! Many people pick and choose what to believe is to be taken literally, while claiming it is all literal.
They do seem to do that an awful lot, don't they?

I think the Lake of Fire series does a better job at explaining this than I do, though. It does take a lot of energy, time, and study. I backed off the boards for awhile, but I'm back.

Here, for now.

L. Ray Smith - The Lake of Fire - Part 1
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