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Old 07-17-2010, 08:34 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,772,538 times
Reputation: 264

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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
They do seem to do that an awful lot, don't they?

I think the Lake of Fire series does a better job at explaining this than I do, though. It does take a lot of energy, time, and study. I backed off the boards for awhile, but I'm back.

Here, for now.

L. Ray Smith - The Lake of Fire - Part 1
I'm glad you're back!

 
Old 07-17-2010, 08:44 PM
 
21,924 posts, read 16,727,596 times
Reputation: 8732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
That is not true.
Yes it is.

Quote:
People, with their vile imaginations and preconceived notions of an unloving God, projected those interpretations into Jesus' parables instead of realizing the spiritual nature of what He was saying.
The meaning of what Christ was saying is that if you don't receive Him as Savior, you are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire. There is nothing symbolic or allegorial about the clear teaching of what He said concerning hell.

Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 10:28 Matthew 25:41,46; Luke 12:5; Luke 16:19 concerning Hades are passages that are clear in their meaning.

Universalists distort God's love and over emphasize it to the exclusion of His holiness, and fail to understand that God's love in no way compromises His justice. God is not unloving because He leaves in condemnation those who reject His offer of salvation through faith in Christ.

Matthew 7:21-23; 10:28; 25:31-46; Luke 12:5 are not parables.


In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus Christ used a rabbinic story and dialogue to teach of the reality of Hades. He used a fictionalized story to illustrate what was literal in what it is teaching. Obviously Lazarus did not literally sit in Abraham's literal bosom. The rich man did not have literal lips which could be quenched by literal water. Those in hades don't have bodies until they are resurrected out of Hades to appear before Christ at the Great White Thone judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.

For more on Luke 16:19-31 and Hades readers may refer to the following resource...

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: SHEOL, GEHENNA, HADES AND THE AFTERLIFE - A BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE

This site explains the rabbinic stories that were used as teaching methods. These rabbinic stories are not the parables that Jesus spoke to the Jews after they rejected Him as Messiah so that they would NOT understand. Luke 16:19-31 was meant to be understood as teaching about the reality of Hades.


Quote:
I know what you'll say - "To the contrary, " but you won't be able to come back and reply with a verse that says, "If you don't believe in me after I die, you will be set on fire and burn forever." You'll probably just quote that verse in a parable about the devil and his angels, without regard to the fact that he says it's BECAUSE they did not do good to "the least of these," or verses in Revelation that is completely full of symbolism.
Again, Matthew 25:31-46 is not a parable. It is a description of the judgment that awaits Tribulational survivers. Believers go into the Millennium, and unbelievers go into the eternal fire.

And those parts of Revelation which are symbolic describe literal things and events. It is foolish to try and use that as an excuse to dismiss what Revelation teaches.


Quote:
Can you share a verse that is NOT in a parable and is NOT a prophesy where Jesus warns people to believe in Him or BE BURNED FOR ETERNITY? I didn't ask about perishing, by the way. Perish does not equal being set on fire.
You create your own sentence, your own verse '"If you don't believe in me after I die, you will be set on fire and burn forever.", and then issue a challenge to find it in the Bible.

Hell is variously described as the 'lake of fire', the 'furnace of fire', the 'eternal fire', the 'outer darkness', the place where 'their worm never dies', and other descriptions. The place is real and it is eternal. It was prepared for the devil and his angels and is the final and permanent prison for those members of the human race who die without Christ. Whether the fire is literal or is simply the strongest possible language to describe something that is much worse is something that people have different opinions about. The resurrected body of the unbeliever will be indestructable and won't be consumed by a literal fire. Also, the unbeliever isn't necessarily in the flames, but in a place where there is fire. Whatever the exact nature of hell, it is a real place and it is permanent. Jesus used language to drive home the point that hell is a place you want to avoid.

Matthew 25:41-46 has been explained before. As does Revelation 20:11-15, Matthew 25:41-46 shows that unbelievers are condemned on the basis of their works. Not their sins. Their sins were already paid for by Christ and will not be judged again. Instead, God uses the unbelievers human good which is produced by human righteousness to condemn the unbeliever. (Isa 64:6; Titus 3:5)

Matthew 25:31-46 -- Works Salvation? (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1988/88march1.html - broken link)

Revelation 20:7-15 make clear the judgment that awaits the unbeliever. And yes, it is a prophecy.

I am not going to keep going back and forth with you on this, as it is obvious that you have rejected the truth and prefer your own beliefs though they be contrary to the Scriptures. Therefore, this is my final comment to you on this. Do your debating with someone else.

Most Christians have sense enough to realize that the Bible is clear in its teachings of the lake of fire, and that it is the permanent home of those who die having rejected Christ as Savior. But there will always be those who reject the Scriptures and impugn the character of God in so doing.
 
Old 07-17-2010, 08:47 PM
 
21,924 posts, read 16,727,596 times
Reputation: 8732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
Thank you dear brother in Christ.
You're welcome Betsey!!!
 
Old 07-17-2010, 08:53 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,648 posts, read 30,269,947 times
Reputation: 30189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes it is.



The meaning of what Christ was saying is that if you don't receive Him as Savior, you are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire. There is nothing symbolic or allegorial about the clear teaching of what He said concerning hell.

Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 10:28 Matthew 25:41,46; Luke 12:5; Luke 16:19 concerning Hades are passages that are clear in their meaning.

Universalists distort God's love and over emphasize it to the exclusion of His holiness, and fail to understand that God's love in no way compromises His justice. God is not unloving because He leaves in condemnation those who reject His offer of salvation through faith in Christ.

Matthew 7:21-23; 10:28; 25:31-46; Luke 12:5 are not parables.


In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus Christ used a rabbinic story and dialogue to teach of the reality of Hades. He used a fictionalized story to illustrate what was literal in what it is teaching. Obviously Lazarus did not literally sit in Abraham's literal bosom. The rich man did not have literal lips which could be quenched by literal water. Those in hades don't have bodies until they are resurrected out of Hades to appear before Christ at the Great White Thone judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.

For more on Luke 16:19-31 and Hades readers may refer to the following resource...

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: SHEOL, GEHENNA, HADES AND THE AFTERLIFE - A BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE

This site explains the rabbinic stories that were used as teaching methods. These rabbinic stories are not the parables that Jesus spoke to the Jews after they rejected Him as Messiah so that they would NOT understand. Luke 16:19-31 was meant to be understood as teaching about the reality of Hades.




Again, Matthew 25:31-46 is not a parable. It is a description of the judgment that awaits Tribulational survivers. Believers go into the Millennium, and unbelievers go into the eternal fire.

And those parts of Revelation which are symbolic describe literal things and events. It is foolish to try and use that as an excuse to dismiss what Revelation teaches.




You create your own sentence, your own verse '"If you don't believe in me after I die, you will be set on fire and burn forever.", and then issue a challenge to find it in the Bible.

Hell is variously described as the 'lake of fire', the 'furnace of fire', the 'eternal fire', the 'outer darkness', the place where 'their worm never dies', and other descriptions. The place is real and it is eternal. It was prepared for the devil and his angels and is the final and permanent prison for those members of the human race who die without Christ. Whether the fire is literal or is simply the strongest possible language to describe something that is much worse is something that people have different opinions about. The resurrected body of the unbeliever will be indestructable and won't be consumed by a literal fire. Also, the unbeliever isn't necessarily in the flames, but in a place where there is fire. Whatever the exact nature of hell, it is a real place and it is permanent. Jesus used language to drive home the point that hell is a place you want to avoid.

Matthew 25:41-46 has been explained before. As does Revelation 20:11-15, Matthew 25:41-46 shows that unbelievers are condemned on the basis of their works. Not their sins. Their sins were already paid for by Christ and will not be judged again. Instead, God uses the unbelievers human good which is produced by human righteousness to condemn the unbeliever. (Isa 64:6; Titus 3:5)

Matthew 25:31-46 -- Works Salvation? (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1988/88march1.html - broken link)

Revelation 20:7-15 make clear the judgment that awaits the unbeliever. And yes, it is a prophecy.

I am not going to keep going back and forth with you on this, as it is obvious that you have rejected the truth and prefer your own beliefs though they be contrary to the Scriptures. Therefore, this is my final comment to you on this. Do your debating with someone else.

Most Christians have sense enough to realize that the Bible is clear in its teachings of the lake of fire, and that it is the permanent home of those who die having rejected Christ as Savior. But there will always be those who reject the Scriptures and impugn the character of God in so doing.
Great post Mike! The one thing for sure we do know about hell is that all those who have rejected Jesus as Savior will spend eternity there.
 
Old 07-17-2010, 09:04 PM
 
21,924 posts, read 16,727,596 times
Reputation: 8732
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
(Non-universalist link FROM an evangelical site which makes a simple case against traditional versions of hell.All about Sheol and hell)

I hate being lied to. You should know that by now, Mike. And I hate this lie more than any other in the world; Jesus spoke of hell more than anyone else.

Jesus did NOT, and I repeat, DID NOT speak of hell more than anyone else!!! And I will pop in and reply with the REAL truth anytime I see this falsehood being spread.

Here, for all to see, is what hell really is: Translated from 4 other words that have NOTHING whatsoever to do with a literal eternal fire for Satan and cohorts, who are SPIRIT, no less. Honestly!

Sheol; 31 times.

Hades; 10 times.

(and I personally think Sheol was simply the grave and did not in any way tie into the mythological Greek Hades)

Gehenna; 12 times. (Jerusalem garbage dump)

Tartarus; ONCE! (where angels are hanging out)


When Jesus used the term “hell fire” he was ALWAYS talking to the JEWS who were going to be destroyed in 70 A.D. It was a national judgment that occurred almost 2000 years ago!

Paul never talked about hell, and he wrote a good chunk of the New Testament.

Why?

Here are a couple more good links for those that are interested in learning more.

Jesus' Teaching on Hell

L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire - Part 16-A
To the contrary. Most of what the Bible reveals about hell comes directly from Jesus. In denying that, you make God out to be a liar. This is something that people can easily research.

Paul was quite clear in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 about the fate of those who reject Christ.

And for those who are interested, here is my thread about Tartarus, Sheol/hades, and gehenna.

Tartarus, Sheol/Hades, and Gehenna

Final comment. Argue about it with someone else.
 
Old 07-17-2010, 09:14 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,772,538 times
Reputation: 264
BHFT in blue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes it is.

BHFT: No, it' not.

The meaning of what Christ was saying is that if you don't receive Him as Savior, you are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire. There is nothing symbolic or allegorial about the clear teaching of what He said concerning hell.

Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 10:28 Matthew 25:41,46; Luke 12:5; Luke 16:19 concerning Hades are passages that are clear in their meaning.

Universalists distort God's love and over emphasize it to the exclusion of His holiness, and fail to understand that God's love in no way compromises His justice. God is not unloving because He leaves in condemnation those who reject His offer of salvation through faith in Christ.

BHFT: God IS love. It cannot be overemphasized. Can I overemphasize that you ARE a man? Love, justice, and holy do not conflict with each other. What conflicts with God's character is your perception of Him.

Matthew 7:21-23; 10:28; 25:31-46; Luke 12:5 are not parables.


In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus Christ used a rabbinic story and dialogue to teach of the reality of Hades. He used a fictionalized story to illustrate what was literal in what it is teaching. Obviously Lazarus did not literally sit in Abraham's literal bosom. The rich man did not have literal lips which could be quenched by literal water. Those in hades don't have bodies until they are resurrected out of Hades to appear before Christ at the Great White Thone judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.

BHFT: The rich man and Lazarus parable says absolutely nothing about believing or accepting Jesus. You just inject these ideas you've been taught into scripture when it's not there.

For more on Luke 16:19-31 and Hades readers may refer to the following resource...

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: SHEOL, GEHENNA, HADES AND THE AFTERLIFE - A BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE

This site explains the rabbinic stories that were used as teaching methods. These rabbinic stories are not the parables that Jesus spoke to the Jews after they rejected Him as Messiah so that they would NOT understand. Luke 16:19-31 was meant to be understood as teaching about the reality of Hades.




Again, Matthew 25:31-46 is not a parable. It is a description of the judgment that awaits Tribulational survivers. Believers go into the Millennium, and unbelievers go into the eternal fire.

BHFT: This says not one word about believing or not believing. It talks about doing good to others.

And those parts of Revelation which are symbolic describe literal things and events. It is foolish to try and use that as an excuse to dismiss what Revelation teaches.

BHFT: It's foolish for you to believe the Lamb is symbolic, but the lake of fire is not.



You create your own sentence, your own verse '"If you don't believe in me after I die, you will be set on fire and burn forever.", and then issue a challenge to find it in the Bible.

BHFT: Yes, I did, and you could not show anything of the kind in the bible.

Hell is variously described as the 'lake of fire', the 'furnace of fire', the 'eternal fire', the 'outer darkness', the place where 'their worm never dies', and other descriptions. The place is real and it is eternal. It was prepared for the devil and his angels and is the final and permanent prison for those members of the human race who die without Christ. Whether the fire is literal or is simply the strongest possible language to describe something that is much worse is something that people have different opinions about. The resurrected body of the unbeliever will be indestructable and won't be consumed by a literal fire. Also, the unbeliever isn't necessarily in the flames, but in a place where there is fire. Whatever the exact nature of hell, it is a real place and it is permanent. Jesus used language to drive home the point that hell is a place you want to avoid.

BHFT: At least you're starting to see that maybe the unbeliever isn't necessarily in the flames. That's a step in the right direction.

Matthew 25:41-46 has been explained before. As does Revelation 20:11-15, Matthew 25:41-46 shows that unbelievers are condemned on the basis of their works. Not their sins. Their sins were already paid for by Christ and will not be judged again. Instead, God uses the unbelievers human good which is produced by human righteousness to condemn the unbeliever. (Isa 64:6; Titus 3:5)

BHFT: This makes no sense at all. IMO, it's made up to try to force it to work with other doctrine.

Matthew 25:31-46 -- Works Salvation? (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1988/88march1.html - broken link)

Revelation 20:7-15 make clear the judgment that awaits the unbeliever. And yes, it is a prophecy.

I am not going to keep going back and forth with you on this, as it is obvious that you have rejected the truth and prefer your own beliefs though they be contrary to the Scriptures. Therefore, this is my final comment to you on this. Do your debating with someone else.

Most Christians have sense enough to realize that the Bible is clear in its teachings of the lake of fire, and that it is the permanent home of those who die having rejected Christ as Savior. But there will always be those who reject the Scriptures and impugn the character of God in so doing.
We think the same way about one thing. I feel this way about you:

I am not going to keep going back and forth with you on this, as it is obvious that you have rejected the truth and prefer your own beliefs though they be contrary to the Scriptures. Therefore, this is my final comment to you on this. Do your debating with someone else.
 
Old 07-17-2010, 09:15 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,772,538 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Great post Mike! The one thing for sure we do know about hell is that all those who have rejected Jesus as Savior will spend eternity there.
Can you show a verse in the bible that says that?
 
Old 07-17-2010, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,493,941 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. Most of what the Bible reveals about hell comes directly from Jesus. In denying that, you make God out to be a liar. This is something that people can easily research.

Paul was quite clear in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 about the fate of those who reject Christ.

And for those who are interested, here is my thread about Tartarus, Sheol/hades, and gehenna.

www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/1010026-tartarus-sheol-hades-gehenna.html

Final comment. Argue about it with someone else.
You are right, Mike. They can research much easier than before. We aren't in the dark ages anymore.

I hope they do.
 
Old 07-17-2010, 09:23 PM
 
21,924 posts, read 16,727,596 times
Reputation: 8732
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Great post Mike! The one thing for sure we do know about hell is that all those who have rejected Jesus as Savior will spend eternity there.
Yes. Aside from the matter of the fire, can you imagine what it will be like for those who have rejected Christ to be in a place where there will be billions of other eternally lost people who have no hope? Where there is nothing but suffering and torment in whatever form it is realized. Like the ever constant memories of all the opportunites that they had to receive Christ as Savior but refused to do so. And now they are forever shut off from any relationship with Christ. And the ever constant realization that they are there forever. There will be no authority there. No order. Nothing but chaos. And all are in a condition of utter ruin and uselessness. Just misery and hopelessness and emptyness. Eternal judgment, eternal torment.

It is not a place that anyone in their right mind would want to spend a moment in. Much less, all eternity. But that is what awaits those who refuse God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ.
 
Old 07-17-2010, 09:23 PM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,577,786 times
Reputation: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
You are right, Mike. They can research much easier than before. We aren't in the dark ages anymore.

I hope they do.
With a double meaning...
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