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Old 07-17-2010, 09:47 PM
 
Location: in the woods
180 posts, read 229,214 times
Reputation: 29

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
Why would an eternity in neverending torment be just payment for 80 years worth of silly and minor sins,which is only what most of mankind could be considered guilty of?Or even heinous sins?

Also,why would God create a system of justification that was unavailable to most of mankind for most of the Christian era?
Hello lifertexan,

Thanks for your reply to my post. To answer your questions, if I may:

A) I would think the justification of such a eternal punishment would be warranted, since, at least in the Bible it tells us, that we are all doomed to destruction, and none of us...are...how does Paul the apostle put it...are without excuse. B) Such minor sins, in God's eyes, are major, since His presence allows no such a thing. He did give us Christ, who became sin for mankind, so wouldn't it be justified that if we denied him, for whatever reason, we denied our sins in retrospect, and then died in them, with no such deliverance from them. C) Did not Paul say we are already guilty, regardless of where we came from? D) The system of justification, at least from what the Bible tells us, was not instituted by us, but by God, and I believe it is His rules and regulations that we must uphold that upon which were given to us, to pastor and preach to those who are either unaware, oblivious to, or searching for in His word and letters written down for us to personalize, and most of all, to get closer to Him.
I think it is behooving of us, to preach the gospel, that mankind does have a way out, news to me that is good, if he would just believe. But like I have said to others in the past around the Internet, those things should be left up to God, do you agree?
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Old 07-17-2010, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,491,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerimiahJohnson View Post
Hello lifertexan,

Thanks for your reply to my post. To answer your questions, if I may:

A) I would think the justification of such a eternal punishment would be warranted, since, at least in the Bible it tells us, that we are all doomed to destruction, and none of us...are...how does Paul the apostle put it...are without excuse.

B) Such minor sins, in God's eyes, are major, since His presence allows no such a thing. He did give us Christ, who became sin for mankind, so wouldn't it be justified that if we denied him, for whatever reason, we denied our sins in retrospect, and then died in them, with no such deliverance from them.

C) Did not Paul say we are already guilty, regardless of where we came from?
We are without excuse. Our conscience is proof of that, in my opinion. And, yes, we are all guilty. So, our wages are death. We all get to turn back to dust.

But.........

2 questions:

The creation was made in futility, NOT willingly (Romans 8:20). What does that mean to you?

Also, if you believe Jesus was God then he was in sinners presence a LOT. So, if you also believe that God is EVERYWHERE (whether you think Jesus was God or not) then he is in the middle of a large amount of sin everyday. Yes?

I don't believe his Spirit lives in everyone, presently. No. Not at all. But, he is here.
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Old 07-17-2010, 11:11 PM
 
Location: in the woods
180 posts, read 229,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
We are without excuse. Our conscience is proof of that, in my opinion. And, yes, we are all guilty. So, our wages are death. We all get to turn back to dust.

But.........

2 questions:

The creation was made in futility, NOT willingly (Romans 8:20). What does that mean to you?

Also, if you believe Jesus was God then he was in sinners presence a LOT. So, if you also believe that God is EVERYWHERE (whether you think Jesus was God or not) then he is in the middle of a large amount of sin everyday. Yes?

I don't believe his Spirit lives in everyone, presently. No. Not at all. But, he is here.
Thank you herefornow for conversing with me. I believe that creation, is mankind, and that through our belief in Him, we become a new creation. The garden is restored. The covenant redeemed. Our relationship healed.

The natural things, the celestial things, are very good to God. It was man that needed restoration. And through Christ, although we were dead, are now alive. A voctory so to speak over death. God humbled Himself in the form of man, as the Bible states, and God separated Himself from Christ on the cross, because He became sin. Is not sin from the nature of man that which would not inherit the kingdom? A spirit unseen?

God bless.
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Old 07-17-2010, 11:26 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,391,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerimiahJohnson View Post
Hello AlabamaStorm,
Hello JerimiahJohnson

Quote:
One question...didn't Jesus Christ become sin, so that believing in Him, as this said aformentioned, is neccessary for salvation, and avoidance of eternal destruction?
Belief is not "necessary" for salvation. Belief, or faith, is the knowledge that reveals to us, in time, our reconciliation that was secured by Jesus on the cross, when we were His enemies. We are saved by His life.

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Quote:
I would think the relationship of the soul committing the sin, and the body acting out the sin, reject the Christ that became the sin, would be a justificable punishment eternally in Hell?
Christ's death for us on the cross was our punishment for sin. Our sins were imputed to Christ on the cross: "He was pierced through for our transgressions". His righteousness is imputed to us: "And by His scourging we are healed".

Isa 53:5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

Quote:
Thank you for your consideration in my post.
You're welcome
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Old 07-17-2010, 11:27 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,391,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, it summarizes nothing but your unquenchable need to attack other people's faith. Do you feel smart twisting the meaning of Christian belief like that? You keep presenting the old & naive atheist argument that loving God would not send anyone to hell. I hear is from atheists and universalists every day.

God is a righteous judge, and he will judge according to the law which he created and which has been revealed to us. The Bible makes it crystal clear that sin cannot go unpunished. If He permitted people to violate his law and get away with it, it would make God himself a liar, but God is incapable of lying. Lying would make him unrighteous. Why would God create law if he didn't want people to obey it? There would be no purpose to such law, and God does nothing without a purpose.
You sound a little tight tonight Finn...LOL I think you've missed the whole purpose of the Gospel!
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Old 07-17-2010, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,289,854 times
Reputation: 869
Did the Jews have to "accept" the sin sacrifice that was made for their sins every year? Or were they covered no matter what?

We are in relationship with God, no matter what anybody says. And the reason we are all in relationship to Him, is simply because He CREATED us! There is no way to escape our relationship with Him! The very fact that there is a judgement (if indeed there will be such a thing, I personally believe that the judgement will be very very different than the type carnal man has in mind..) is a proof that we are in relationship with Him.
We may disobey. We may call on Him.
But we will always, always be in relationship with Him. And I cannot reconcile that fact with the idea that He will torment His creatures forever. It just doesn't make any kind of Biblical sense. Not in the light of Love, nor in the light of Reason.

Of course, He COULD do that. But Jesus came that we might have an understanding as to who God was all about, and how He wants us to live. Why does He command us to love our enemies? To be hypocrites?

Blessings,
brian
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Old 07-18-2010, 12:22 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,491,854 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerimiahJohnson View Post
Thank you herefornow for conversing with me. I believe that creation, is mankind, and that through our belief in Him, we become a new creation. The garden is restored. The covenant redeemed. Our relationship healed.

The natural things, the celestial things, are very good to God. It was man that needed restoration. And through Christ, although we were dead, are now alive. A voctory so to speak over death. God humbled Himself in the form of man, as the Bible states, and God separated Himself from Christ on the cross, because He became sin. Is not sin from the nature of man that which would not inherit the kingdom? A spirit unseen?

God bless.

Thank you. Yes. Our sinful nature means that we are not able to fill that void. Even if we were to be filled with the Spirit, we still have that void. We see through the glass darkly and still have that sin nature with us. The separation between us and our Creator is palpable.

But, could you tell me why the creation was made in futility (Romans 8:20)?

And why was Jesus able to hang out with sinners if He was indeed God, if God can't stand the presence of sinners?

He mingled quite well with them, I thought. Why did he not hang out with the religious? Oh, wait.........
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:33 AM
 
Location: in the woods
180 posts, read 229,214 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Hello JerimiahJohnson

Belief is not "necessary" for salvation. Belief, or faith, is the knowledge that reveals to us, in time, our reconciliation that was secured by Jesus on the cross, when we were His enemies. We are saved by His life.

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Christ's death for us on the cross was our punishment for sin. Our sins were imputed to Christ on the cross: "He was pierced through for our transgressions". His righteousness is imputed to us: "And by His scourging we are healed".

Isa 53:5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

You're welcome
Hello AlabamaStorm,

Thank you for your thought out reply to my post. I believe everything you have said, but what I am having trouble with your opening sentence, as Paul, just as you used Romans 5 to leverage your view, seems to disagree with you at the opening sentence as well....Verse 1 says....Therefore being justified by faith...so I must accept that is what it takes, to have the remainder of Paul's message to us in Romans 5, is founded on faith. Would you not agree? Also...what about Paul's message later on, in the same breath in chapter 10, where he makes it clear to us readers that confession in Christ...secures salvation? Would not these two statements, annul what you have said here, where not only I and others have read, but the thousands, if not millions of people that lurk this site. We must be careful with what we say and teach, because people believe the words of man, more so than God, especially in these times, and I believe that your message, that it does not require faith to have salvation, appears to be in contrast with what Christ and Paul taught. My opnions of course, but that in my mind, is not a message that is supposed to be complicated, but a message, that even a 4 yeard old child could understand...is not that how we are supposed to love Him...like a child? Our approach must be childike, which includes our understanding of His message. Believe in Him, inherit salvation.
For me, the plainest sense is the best sense.
Thanks again for conversing with me.
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:36 AM
 
Location: in the woods
180 posts, read 229,214 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Did the Jews have to "accept" the sin sacrifice that was made for their sins every year? Or were they covered no matter what?

We are in relationship with God, no matter what anybody says. And the reason we are all in relationship to Him, is simply because He CREATED us! There is no way to escape our relationship with Him! The very fact that there is a judgement (if indeed there will be such a thing, I personally believe that the judgement will be very very different than the type carnal man has in mind..) is a proof that we are in relationship with Him.
We may disobey. We may call on Him.
But we will always, always be in relationship with Him. And I cannot reconcile that fact with the idea that He will torment His creatures forever. It just doesn't make any kind of Biblical sense. Not in the light of Love, nor in the light of Reason.

Of course, He COULD do that. But Jesus came that we might have an understanding as to who God was all about, and how He wants us to live. Why does He command us to love our enemies? To be hypocrites?

Blessings,
brian
Hello ahigherway,

If we are all in a raltionship with Him, reagrdless of our belief system, which I to an extent, agree with you, are we to apply the same system of blessings for obedience, and curses, for disobedience to His "system?" It seems that if we are to disobey Him, it would be justifiable that the curses would come upon us in some fashion. The blessings aren't the only part of the system that functions. We must take the good..with the bad.

Thank you and God bless.
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:53 AM
 
Location: in the woods
180 posts, read 229,214 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Thank you. Yes. Our sinful nature means that we are not able to fill that void. Even if we were to be filled with the Spirit, we still have that void. We see through the glass darkly and still have that sin nature with us. The separation between us and our Creator is palpable.

But, could you tell me why the creation was made in futility (Romans 8:20)?

And why was Jesus able to hang out with sinners if He was indeed God, if God can't stand the presence of sinners?

He mingled quite well with them, I thought. Why did he not hang out with the religious? Oh, wait.........
Hello herefornow,

To answer your question of Romans 8...I believe searching the Bible further may help us understand.....Rev 21:7, Luke 20:36 and Philippians 1:20 comes to mind. But to expand solely on Romans 8:20, it appears that Paul is conveying that creation has a real will and consciousness. It groans...I think the creation, as I have stated in my previous post, represents God's people, and by the breath of life they once received in Adam, once again receives in Christ when they take their oath of confession. As you can see from the referrences I gave above, it is of my opinion that Paul is reaching back to Genesis 3, speaking about the fall of Adam and Eve, the point in history where God's curse entered His covenant world because of disobedience. About yor second question, do you not believe that Christ is another administration of the same Lord? I believe you answered your third question. Thanks so much for talking with me. God bless.
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