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Old 07-19-2010, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,497,555 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
James 1:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Do these scriptures conflict with one another? Or are they speaking of two aspects of faith.

First it should be pointed out that Paul in Romans 4 is speaking of faith in the birth of Isaac (this is seen in verses 18-22) and James is speaking of the sacrifice of Isaac.

Two different aspects of faith.

Abraham did nothing but believe in Isaacs birth, but once Isaac/Christ is birthed in us He produces works of faith. It is these works of faith James is speaking of and this can be seen in verse 22 “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” /complete

If Abraham never offered up Isaac (which is works) then his faith would never have come to completion.

We can see these same works of faith also mentioned by both Jesus and Paul.

John 8:39
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.( Are they works of faith or works of the law)
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works,(these would be works of the law) least any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (works of faith)

2 Thessalonians 1:11
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Hebrews 11:7
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark (works) to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Now think on this; if Noah had not built the boat (which was a work of faith, the same works of faith James is speaking on) then he and his house would have drowned with the rest of mankind.

Adds another layer to “faith without works is dead” don’t it.
Yes, it does. Thanks, pneuma. I'm going to see if I can find an old thread on this subject, so I can study this a little more.
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:52 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,397,208 times
Reputation: 329
[quote=JerimiahJohnson;15106645][quote=AlabamaStorm;15098071]

Quote:
Hello AlabamaStorm,
Hello JerimiahJohnson!

Quote:
Thank you again for conversing with me on this subject. My reasoning involving "justification" and "imputation of righteousness" are not to be confused as being the same things as you said I might be doing. They are different terms and of my opinion, are uniquely related though. I see you referred to Verses 22-24, which not only deal with Christ, but the faith of Christ unto us...as Paul says... by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe...Our Faith of Him is how I understand this.
So I think we agree on the imputation of righteousness. Is it your belief that you were justified, as opposed to being imputed with His righteousness, by Christ alone on the cross? Or was it by something you did? IOW, when and how did your justification take place?

Quote:
Paul seems to always bring the message full circle as to how one can attain this free gift that He gave each and every one of us. It is by faith in Him, and not one person on this earth, at least how I understand the messages of the Bible, is justified or imputed with righteousness unless the individual acts on God's actions of drawing that person near to Him.
What of those that die at birth or in infancy? Such as David's illegitimate son (2 Sa 12:23). Do believe new born infants have faith and act on God's actions? The scriptures teach that the natural man (being un-regenerated) does not receive the things of the Spirit

1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;

Jesus said that the flesh profits nothing and Paul added that it cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;

1Co 15:50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;

Is it your belief that the natural man (being in an unregenerate state) act's on God's actions? If so, can you explain how?
Quote:
God draws, man accepts. God's brings, man surrenders.
Are you speaking of man in his natural state (the flesh) or after being regenerated to life (born of the Spirit)?

Thanks for taking time to discuss!
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Old 07-23-2010, 01:07 PM
 
Location: in the woods
180 posts, read 229,673 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post

Hello JerimiahJohnson!

So I think we agree on the imputation of righteousness. Is it your belief that you were justified, as opposed to being imputed with His righteousness, by Christ alone on the cross? Or was it by something you did? IOW, when and how did your justification take place?

What of those that die at birth or in infancy? Such as David's illegitimate son (2 Sa 12:23). Do believe new born infants have faith and act on God's actions? The scriptures teach that the natural man (being un-regenerated) does not receive the things of the Spirit

1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;

Jesus said that the flesh profits nothing and Paul added that it cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;

1Co 15:50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;

Is it your belief that the natural man (being in an unregenerate state) act's on God's actions? If so, can you explain how?
Are you speaking of man in his natural state (the flesh) or after being regenerated to life (born of the Spirit)?

Thanks for taking time to discuss!
Hello AlabamaStorm,

I am finally getting back to this post. I apologize for the delay, as this forum is very active, and I tend to unknowingly forget where I have conversed! I believe that we are justified at the cross. Imputation of righteousness, I have to go by what Paul said to us, and that righteousness is imputed by faith. Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believe, for there is no difference. I believe that imputation is there for everyone, as His sacrifice is good enough for the entire world infinity times over, but it is only through faith that this is realized in man. Faith is given by God and therefore we must conclude, as the Bible is very clear to me about, that God elects those to be in the faith. I believe that the act of confession is a willed part on man, but everything surrounding that confession is that of God's, so in turn, even if man believes he is confessing freely, which He is, he is only doing so by revelation of God. It can be a complex subject, but I like to look at it in that way, as my ability to wrap my thoughts around it are easier. For me, the ability for God to do what He does, is beyond me, and I simply try to make sense out of what He is saying. As far as infants are concerned, we have really only a couple of places in the Bible that tell us about them after they die. 2 Samuel 12, as you have provided, is clear to me that David’s dead infant son would never return to this earth, but David also said that one day, he would go to be with his son. Through inspiration, David documented that his own eternal destination was going to be “in the house of the Lord” in Psalm 23:6. Therefore, I can conclude that “the house of the Lord” would be the eternal destination of his infant son to whom David would one day go. Nothing there gives me the idea that his son would go to hell. Also in Matthew 18:3-5, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me. And in Luke 18:16-17, Jesus said “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.” You have given a great example in the Old Testament of an infant who died and would live forever in heaven. And Jesus Christ, in the New Testament, stated that little children retain the qualities that make a person eligible to inherit the kingdom of God. I must conclude based on this evidence that infants and small children that die are in a safe state, and appear to live eternally in heaven. At least that is how I see it. Ezekiel 18:20 says: The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. It is the sin nature, the corruptive body, the symbolically represented flesh, bones and blood that is our sinful soul, that inherits death. James said From whence [come] wars and fightings among you? [come they] not hence, [even] of your lusts that war in your members? I hope I have answered your questions. If you feel I haven't please reply back to me and we can discuss this profound message of the gospels more.
God bless you.
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Old 07-23-2010, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,913 posts, read 4,246,699 times
Reputation: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerimiahJohnson View Post
Hello AlabamaStorm,

I am finally getting back to this post. I apologize for the delay, as this forum is very active, and I tend to unknowingly forget where I have conversed! I believe that we are justified at the cross. Imputation of righteousness, I have to go by what Paul said to us, and that righteousness is imputed by faith. Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believe, for there is no difference. I believe that imputation is there for everyone, as His sacrifice is good enough for the entire world infinity times over, but it is only through faith that this is realized in man. Faith is given by God and therefore we must conclude, as the Bible is very clear to me about, that God elects those to be in the faith. I believe that the act of confession is a willed part on man, but everything surrounding that confession is that of God's, so in turn, even if man believes he is confessing freely, which He is, he is only doing so by revelation of God. It can be a complex subject, but I like to look at it in that way, as my ability to wrap my thoughts around it are easier. For me, the ability for God to do what He does, is beyond me, and I simply try to make sense out of what He is saying. As far as infants are concerned, we have really only a couple of places in the Bible that tell us about them after they die. 2 Samuel 12, as you have provided, is clear to me that David’s dead infant son would never return to this earth, but David also said that one day, he would go to be with his son. Through inspiration, David documented that his own eternal destination was going to be “in the house of the Lord” in Psalm 23:6. Therefore, I can conclude that “the house of the Lord” would be the eternal destination of his infant son to whom David would one day go. Nothing there gives me the idea that his son would go to hell. Also in Matthew 18:3-5, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me. And in Luke 18:16-17, Jesus said “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.” You have given a great example in the Old Testament of an infant who died and would live forever in heaven. And Jesus Christ, in the New Testament, stated that little children retain the qualities that make a person eligible to inherit the kingdom of God. I must conclude based on this evidence that infants and small children that die are in a safe state, and appear to live eternally in heaven. At least that is how I see it. Ezekiel 18:20 says: The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. It is the sin nature, the corruptive body, the symbolically represented flesh, bones and blood that is our sinful soul, that inherits death. James said From whence [come] wars and fightings among you? [come they] not hence, [even] of your lusts that war in your members? I hope I have answered your questions. If you feel I haven't please reply back to me and we can discuss this profound message of the gospels more.
God bless you.

Hi JJ, as I like the spirit of your post even though I disagree with some of what you write I still like to read your thoughts.

But this is hard to do as you lump everything together.

If you don't mind could you seperate it a little like this




I am finally getting back to this post. I apologize for the delay, as this forum is very active, and I tend to unknowingly forget where I have conversed!

I believe that we are justified at the cross. Imputation of righteousness, I have to go by what Paul said to us, and that righteousness is imputed by faith. Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believe, for there is no difference.


I believe that imputation is there for everyone, as His sacrifice is good enough for the entire world infinity times over, but it is only through faith that this is realized in man. Faith is given by God and therefore we must conclude, as the Bible is very clear to me about, that God elects those to be in the faith.



It just makes it easier on my tired old eyes when it is broken up a little.
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