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Old 07-17-2010, 10:44 PM
 
697 posts, read 913,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I would have to agree. A good time to use bug-eyed guy.

So good, I'll use him again!
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Old 07-18-2010, 05:16 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,735,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleHeart View Post
You have to make a choice. Believe and follow EVERYTHING God taught, or throw your Bible away.

You cannot only follow the parts you like and be willfully disobedient to the parts you do not like.

There is no fence sitting here, either follow EVERYTHING God taught or not at all.
There is a third option. Consider when and why what was written was written. Often, a specific issue that may or may not exist in your current situation was being addressed.

Let's look again at women learning in subjection. Back in biblical times, women had no rights. They were property. Any religion that came along and gave them rights was sure to die. You don't win converts by offending. The bible isn't telling us that women are incapable of learning any other way. It's telling us that during this time, for reasons that existed at that time, this was how it had to be. Obviously, because Christ allowed women to minister to him, the bible is not saying this should always be the case. (I've listed other reasons why this would be so in biblical times before and won't reiterate)

Now let's apply this to today. Let's say I married a missionary to a Muslim country where women have no rights, women never leave the home without a male escort and they always cover their heads. What this passage is telling me is to consider my situation and not to offend the locals. I would cover my head not because I believe their religion but so as not to offend them. I would refrain from leaving my house without a male escort both for my own safety and so as not to offend them and I would not speak up in public. I would say what I have to say to my husband in private.

Because much of the bible was written for a certain situation, you have to consider the situation it was being written for and the customs of the times. It was more important that the Christian religion be promoted so it's not going to give instructions to buck the norm. What this passage is saying is that women need to consider their place in society and act accordingly. Our place in society has changed.
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Old 07-18-2010, 05:27 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,735,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmalltownKSgirl View Post
Paul was writing a letter to a congregation. He was giving advice or directions of some kind, obviously. We don't have the other side of the conversation though, so we don't really know what specific issue Paul was addressing. Maybe some women were being outrageously disrespectful of their husbands and needed a strong talking to. Paul's letter was preserved though and is now part of our religious text. Should this particular passage have been retained and preserved? Does it truly reflect the Holy Spirit, or does it reflect the social mores of the time along with Paul's personal opinion?

Why, is 25 some kind of magic number?
I've heard these passages taught both ways. As the expectations for wives AND as the responsiblity for husbands. I have no idea why people (usually men) try to interpret these verses as only saying women are to obey. They also compare the husband to Christ which means his goal is to be Christlike in all dealings. Christ died for the church. If my husband is to be to me as Christ is to the church, he should be prepared to lay his life down for mine. Now THAT is heavy.

And if he were prepared to lay his life down for mine....If he cared so much for my well being he'd die for me....you can bet your bottom dollar I'd follow him where he lead me. To have that kind of love would be incredible. Unfortunately, when these verses are thrown at women, the responsiblity of men to be as Christ is to the church seems to get lost along the way.

While it is God's intent my marriage mirror the relationship between Christ and the church, it goes both ways. This is not an admonishment for women to just do as their men tell them to do. God didn't make me my husband's slave. These verses speak to men's behavior as much as they do women's. What they really say to women is if your husband is acting as Christ does to the church, you are to follow him. If he is not acting as a Christian head of household, we are under no obligation to blindly follow and, like the church (remember that most of the letters in the bible were written to chuches struggling with issues) there will be times when he is acting as Christ does to the church and we still don't follow.

Seriously, women got the easier path here. Our only real issue is when is it acceptable to not follow. Where do you draw the line to say "My husband is not acting as Christ would to the church". He does not have my family's best interest at heart. Sometimes it's easy if he, say has a gambling or drinking problem or isn't even Christian but, seemingly, good men sometimes don't have good hearts. God gave me a brain because I need to be able to decide.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 07-18-2010 at 05:50 AM..
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Old 07-18-2010, 05:33 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,735,727 times
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I just wanted to add that God does not demand anything of us. He asks for it. He gives us a model to aspire to. It's our choice whether or not to take it. God is still God regardless of what I do. Nothing I can do would change God. If my husband is to be as Christ is to the church, he is to be as Christ is to the church regardless of what I do. Christ loved us enough, while we were still in sin, to lay down his life for us. This is the basis of the model for the Christian marriage. So the answer to the question "What do you do with a rebellious wife?" is another question. What would Jesus do?...Actually...What DID Jesus do? He died for her.

My experience in life (yes I know this is anecdotal and a small sample set) is that men who throw these verses around interpreting them as saying their wives must obey them are usually men who are not acting towards their wives as Christ does towards the church. Christ isn't on a power trip demanding obedience. Instead, we are, gently, lead the way we should go. We are placed into situations that teach us. God doesn't, usually, treat us with a heavy hand.

There is one thing in the Christian marriage that is not in Christ's relationship with the church. The church has a perfect head. Marriage is between two imperfect beings. I agree with the earlier poster who said that couples need to pray until they are in agreement. Only then is the head of the household taking to heart the best interest of every member of the household as Christ does the church. Remember, Christ gave his life for the church. What are you willing to give to your wife?

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 07-18-2010 at 05:44 AM..
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Old 07-18-2010, 05:44 AM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,573,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I just wanted to add that God does not demand anything of us. He asks for it. He gives us a model to aspire to. It's our choice whether or not to take it. God is still God regardless of what I do. Nothing I can do would change God. If my husband is to be as Christ is to the church, he is to be as Christ is to the church regardless of what I do. Christ loved us enough, while we were still in sin, to lay down his life for us. This is the basis of the model for the Christian marriage. So the answer to the question "What do you do with a rebellious wife?" is another question. What would Jesus do?...Actually...What DID Jesus do? He died for her.

My experience in life (yes I know this is anecdotal and a small sample set) is that men who throw these verses around demanding their wives obey them are usually men who are not acting towards their wives as Christ does towards the church. Christ isn't on a power trip demanding obedience. Instead, we are, gently, lead the way we should go. We are placed into situations that teach us. God doesn't, usually, treat us with a heavy hand.

There is one thing in the Christian marriage that is not in Christ's relationship with the church. The church has a perfect head. Marriage is between two imperfect beings. I agree with the earlier poster who said that couples need to pray until they are in agreement. Only then is the head of the household taking to heart the best interest of every member of the household as Christ does the church. Remember, Christ gave his life for the church. What are you willing to give to your wife?
Good post...
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:15 AM
 
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Not sure if obey is the right word to use here.. Respect sounds much better. Paul talks about wives respecting their husbands... make sense to me.
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:55 AM
 
11,242 posts, read 11,262,240 times
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Quote:
If my husband is to be to me as Christ is to the church, he should be prepared to lay his life down for mine. Now THAT is heavy.

And if he were prepared to lay his life down for mine....If he cared so much for my well being he'd die for me....you can bet your bottom dollar I'd follow him where he lead me.
You can bet on the line Christ expects all Christian husbands to be willing to sacrifice their lives to save their wives' and if a husband, Christian or not is not willing then he's not even a human being, much less a man. At the very least he does not love his wife and I'd dump him like yesterday's garbage.
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:56 AM
 
697 posts, read 913,520 times
Reputation: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
There is a third option. Consider when and why what was written was written. Often, a specific issue that may or may not exist in your current situation was being addressed.

Let's look again at women learning in subjection. Back in biblical times, women had no rights. They were property. Any religion that came along and gave them rights was sure to die. You don't win converts by offending. The bible isn't telling us that women are incapable of learning any other way. It's telling us that during this time, for reasons that existed at that time, this was how it had to be. Obviously, because Christ allowed women to minister to him, the bible is not saying this should always be the case. (I've listed other reasons why this would be so in biblical times before and won't reiterate)

What this passage is saying is that women need to consider their place in society and act accordingly. Our place in society has changed.
Yes, exactly!
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:58 AM
 
Location: SW Missouri
15,847 posts, read 30,357,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
What if a wife refuses to obey her husband in important decisions, says she's going to do what she wants, and this is detrimental to the relationship? Would this be grounds for the husband to divorce her? If not, then how can the marriage function properly when one spouse is in constant rebellion?
Well, duh! Of course it would. Who in the world would want to be married to someone like that?

20yrsinBranson
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Old 07-18-2010, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Nowhere'sville
2,345 posts, read 3,902,538 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I don't see any, "except in this situation or in that situation" in that verse. Wouldn't that be enough authority, except for the husband ordering the wife to do something immoral or illegal? Or has Christianity evolved in this modern world where feminism has taken its place alongside the Word of God?

But, in fairness, I will give two examples:

#1:

She: I want to buy this house. I mean I've had my heart set on a house like this all my life.
He: It might put our finances in danger.
She: You're always looking at the negative side of things. Can't you be positive once in a while? If you don't want to go in with me, fine. I'll go in by myself.

#2:

He: Let's talk about relocating to another city. The climate here is starting to affect my health.
She: You just think about yourself. What about me? What about my family here?
He: We won't move far away. We can visit them a few times a month.
She: That's on your schedule. What about my schedule? Maybe I want to see my family more often than a few times a month. Well, you can move if you want to but I'm staying here.

And notice I didn't even bring up the issue of children:

He: Let's start a family.
She: I don't want children.
He: Why didn't you tell me this before we got married?
She: You never asked.

Girls?

Okay you asked and I am a girl so..... I have no opinion on the first two examples. All I can say is that it is foolish to buy a house you cannot afford and would you rather have some minor health issues or a pissed off wife?

As for the children thing....it is her choice alone really. Her body. And would it be fair for a child to have a mother who does not really want it?
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