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Old 07-17-2010, 01:40 PM
 
7,813 posts, read 10,706,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Let's see what we have so far:

By an overwhelming majority, if not unanimous, opinion by the WOMEN (surprise! ) the sexes are EQUAL in decision-making.

I mean there it is in black and white, girls.

June could be terribly wrong about this (and Lord knows no one, much less June, would be surprised if she is!) but for all the condescension around "women's lib" it seems to June that there are some who have benefitted from it. Indulge June while she cites an example:

Christian head of household loses his job. Christian head of household is doing all he can to find gainful employment, but in the present economy, things are looking grim. Meanwhile, Christian male's "obedient wife" happens to move into the role of being "primary bread winner" within the family, thereby putting food on the table, and quite possibly preventing the family from having to move due to a foreclosure on their home, which would displace the children as regards friends and having to adapt to a whole new school system. "Obedient Christian wife" supports the household until such time as husband is able to find gainful employment, or employment that financially is equivalent to his previous salary.

Now tell June: Just HOW does this whole thing work? You cannot "bash" or look down upon "women's lib" (a phrase, btw, that June hasn't heard in ages given our current culture/society) or accept the fact that women serve far more of a purpose than being just "obedient" entities within a marriage. It is noteworthy to June that MOST Christian men wouldn't hesitate to accept the income and financial security that an "obedient Christian wife" could offset the deficits with, but heaven forbid that the impact of "women's lib" be acknowledged in the way it should be in the "example" June highlights, above.

You can't have it both ways, guys....And clearly (to June's way of thinking) the wife's supplemental income in order to buy the head-of-household-husband time to find another source of income bespeaks something that "obedience" has no part of.

-But "partnership" does.

One can't always have their cake and eat it too. Sometimes one has to be grateful, all the while that they humble themselves to pay the mortgage. -With or without that 'obedient' Christian wife!


Take gentle equitable care.
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Old 07-17-2010, 01:58 PM
 
11,258 posts, read 11,273,591 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
June could be terribly wrong about this (and Lord knows no one, much less June, would be surprised if she is!) but for all the condescension around "women's lib" it seems to June that there are some who have benefitted from it. Indulge June while she cites an example:

Christian head of household loses his job. Christian head of household is doing all he can to find gainful employment, but in the present economy, things are looking grim. Meanwhile, Christian male's "obedient wife" happens to move into the role of being "primary bread winner" within the family, thereby putting food on the table, and quite possibly preventing the family from having to move due to a foreclosure on their home, which would displace the children as regards friends and having to adapt to a whole new school system. "Obedient Christian wife" supports the household until such time as husband is able to find gainful employment, or employment that financially is equivalent to his previous salary.

Now tell June: Just HOW does this whole thing work? You cannot "bash" or look down upon "women's lib" (a phrase, btw, that June hasn't heard in ages given our current culture/society) or accept the fact that women serve far more of a purpose than being just "obedient" entities within a marriage. It is noteworthy to June that MOST Christian men wouldn't hesitate to accept the income and financial security that an "obedient Christian wife" could offset the deficits with, but heaven forbid that the impact of "women's lib" be acknowledged in the way it should be in the "example" June highlights, above.

You can't have it both ways, guys....And clearly (to June's way of thinking) the wife's supplemental income in order to buy the head-of-household-husband time to find another source of income bespeaks something that "obedience" has no part of.

-But "partnership" does.

One can't always have their cake and eat it too. Sometimes one has to be grateful, all the while that they humble themselves to pay the mortgage. -With or without that 'obedient' Christian wife!


Take gentle equitable care.
Thrill will be only too happy to attend to a few of June's "concerns":

No husband worth his salt takes advantage of his wife's "inferior" position in the marriage i.e. use her to make money to support his profligate lifestyle. If he loses his job, it would be proper for her to assume the "pants" and he to assume the "skirt" but it should not a permanent fix.

As to the terminology, "woman's lib" it was just a figure of speech to help ID the basic philosophy of equality between the sexes and Thrill reiterates that before the 60's the divorce rate was miniscule in comparison to post 60's. There is a definite correlation.

The best thing to do is to question WHY Paul said what he did. What was Paul trying to teach the Ephesians? Was he a sexist pig attempting to cement men's eternal power over woman. OR was he trying to show that when the relationship between husband and wife mimics the relationship between Christ and the Church, then all things are in perfect balance and harmony?

Girls, you've danced around with cute questions like, "Are your women allowed to vote" but that's just a smokescreen to avoid addressing the larger truth that a wife's relationship to her husband should be a perfect mirror to a Christian's relationship to Christ. True or false?

Last edited by thrillobyte; 07-17-2010 at 02:28 PM..
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Old 07-17-2010, 02:34 PM
 
11,258 posts, read 11,273,591 times
Reputation: 3457
An eerie silence. Must've struck a nerve with that last question.


Moderator cut: edit[mod]

Last edited by Miss Blue; 07-17-2010 at 03:08 PM.. Reason: discuss mod action via dm..TOS ya know
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Old 07-17-2010, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,492,262 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Thrill will be only too happy to attend to a few of June's "concerns":

No husband worth his salt takes advantage of his wife's "inferior" position in the marriage i.e. use her to make money to support his profligate lifestyle. If he loses his job, it would be proper for her to assume the "pants" and he to assume the "skirt" but it should not a permanent fix.

As to the terminology, "woman's lib" it was just a figure of speech to help ID the basic philosophy of equality between the sexes and Thrill reiterates that before the 60's the divorce rate was miniscule in comparison to post 60's. There is a definite correlation.

The best thing to do is to question WHY Paul said what he did. What was Paul trying to teach the Ephesians? Was he a sexist pig attempting to cement men's eternal power over woman. OR was he trying to show that when the relationship between husband and wife mimics the relationship between Christ and the Church, then all things are in perfect balance and harmony?

Girls, you've danced around with cute questions like, "Are your women allowed to vote" but that's just a smokescreen to avoid addressing the larger truth that a wife's relationship to her husband should be a perfect mirror to a Christian's relationship to Christ. True or false?
I don't know if I'm answering your question. Dancing is what I do best.

Anyway, balance is ALWAYS the key.

IF, big if, men believed in a loving God who loved his creatures, they would love their children and their wives into working with him, even in the difficult times. Imitating Christ's love for his church is what the family is about, in the New Testament. I think that many modern men are way too immature and caught up in the madness of lust, drugs, and gaming to be of any help to women these days, unfortunately. I have hope for my daughter, though.

I also think the anger against traditional families comes from those with dysfunctional backgrounds (I'm from one, as were my parents) who end up seeing, exaggerating (because of past experiences in their own lives), and hating the NORMAL bickering, angst, and frustrations in a typical family. Obliterating the nuclear family helps them vicariously reap vengeance, in a way.

I also believe there is a definite correlation between the divorce rate pre-60s/post-60s and the women's lib movement. However, as with all movements and changes in life, good and bad came of it. If I were to weigh the pros and cons of family life before and after, I would have to say that the nuclear family system with the low divorce rate is the healthiest.

I speak from experience, here.

Pros of a nuclear family~~~~

No need for daycare: Who can love and nurture your child better than you? Chain daycares? (although, things are so screwed up now, daycare may indeed be better for the child than the home).

Home cooked meals: No need for fast food which leads to very unhealthy children and adults, which leads to a burden on the health-care system.

Mom and dad both home: Mom is not rushing through the day trying to keep everything in order, yelling at the kids, not being consistent because, well, things are chaotic, which leads to confused and angry kids, which leads to a number of unhealthy paths.

No single mothers: Without a healthy dad around, boys often end up rebelling and challenging their frayed mothers. Nurture (which I believe woman do best) needs to be balanced with discipline (father). It seems to work best that way. Trying to nurture and discipline at the same time can look and feel confusing.

Pros of women's lib~~~~

Women can get out of TRULY abusive relationships more easily. I'm not talking about a wife who is angry because the next door neighbor makes her feel beautiful and her husband does not. I'm talking about women and children who are being mentally and physically abused. They have a support system in place: daycare, etc.

I can't think of any more. I will ponder.
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Old 07-17-2010, 04:13 PM
 
365 posts, read 437,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
What if a wife refuses to obey her husband in important decisions, says she's going to do what she wants, and this is detrimental to the relationship? Would this be grounds for the husband to divorce her? If not, then how can the marriage function properly when one spouse is in constant rebellion?
Is your wife your slave is she? You have no right to tell her what to do. That is Islam belief, not Christianity.

Secondly, this is what God says about divorce:

Malachi 2:16: I hate divorce, says the LORD God of Israel.

Matthew 19:9 says, "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman COMMITS ADULTERY."

See also Matthew 5:32.

Matthew 5:32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Amen.
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Old 07-17-2010, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,492,262 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleHeart View Post
Is your wife your slave is she? You have no right to tell her what to do. That is Islam belief, not Christianity.

Secondly, this is what God says about divorce:

Malachi 2:16: I hate divorce, says the LORD God of Israel.

Matthew 19:9 says, "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman COMMITS ADULTERY."

See also Matthew 5:32.

Matthew 5:32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Amen.
I would add abuse to that list. I agree, though. Divorcing for anything and everything is just chaos and brings instability, sadness, and confusion into children's lives.
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Old 07-17-2010, 04:33 PM
 
365 posts, read 437,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I would add abuse to that list. I agree, though. Divorcing for anything and everything is just chaos and brings instability, sadness, and confusion into children's lives.
God never said that abuse is grounds for divorce. We cannot add to the bible things which God never said. Unfortunately people try to add things to the Bible to give themselves justification to divorce their husband or wife. But now this... if you divorce if no adultery has been committed then you will live in willful sin. I realise this truth upsets a lot of people, but that is what God said and if God said it, then it is so!

Only for unfaithfulness is it legal, in God's eyes, to divorce.

If someone is abusing their wife or husband, then they are to separate but never be divorced and will remain legally married in God's eyes. But if the husband or wife later commits adultery, then in God's eyes they are no longer legally married. But should a person willfully sin to get a divorce? Or should they remain faithful to the marriage vows and God? That is something a Christian need to ask themselves.

I know this topic upsets and angers a lot of people, but that is what God taught.

We cannot and we should not start adding things to the Bible which aren't there. We cannot and should not add, or take way, what God taught about marriage.

That is why people really need to pray a lot and consider carefully BEFORE they marry, because marriage is for better of worse, till DEATH do you part. ONLY if ADULTERY and UNFAITHFULNESS occurs are a husband and wife legally divorced in God's eyes. If anyone divorces for any other reason then they are still legally married in God's eyes and commits willful sinning against God if they then marry someone else.

Last edited by PurpleHeart; 07-17-2010 at 04:43 PM..
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Old 07-17-2010, 04:34 PM
 
40,094 posts, read 26,755,929 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Thrill will be only too happy to attend to a few of June's "concerns":

No husband worth his salt takes advantage of his wife's "inferior" position in the marriage i.e. use her to make money to support his profligate lifestyle. If he loses his job, it would be proper for her to assume the "pants" and he to assume the "skirt" but it should not a permanent fix.

As to the terminology, "woman's lib" it was just a figure of speech to help ID the basic philosophy of equality between the sexes and Thrill reiterates that before the 60's the divorce rate was miniscule in comparison to post 60's. There is a definite correlation.

The best thing to do is to question WHY Paul said what he did. What was Paul trying to teach the Ephesians? Was he a sexist pig attempting to cement men's eternal power over woman. OR was he trying to show that when the relationship between husband and wife mimics the relationship between Christ and the Church, then all things are in perfect balance and harmony?

Girls, you've danced around with cute questions like, "Are your women allowed to vote" but that's just a smokescreen to avoid addressing the larger truth that a wife's relationship to her husband should be a perfect mirror to a Christian's relationship to Christ. True or false?
This sounds very immature to me . . . of course at my age many things do. But this seems particularly "unseasoned."
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Old 07-17-2010, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,750,520 times
Reputation: 14583
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I don't see any, "except in this situation or in that situation" in that verse. Wouldn't that be enough authority, except for the husband ordering the wife to do something immoral or illegal? Or has Christianity evolved in this modern world where feminism has taken its place alongside the Word of God?

But, in fairness, I will give two examples:

#1:

She: I want to buy this house. I mean I've had my heart set on a house like this all my life.
He: It might put our finances in danger.
She: You're always looking at the negative side of things. Can't you be positive once in a while? If you don't want to go in with me, fine. I'll go in by myself.

#2:

He: Let's talk about relocating to another city. The climate here is starting to affect my health.
She: You just think about yourself. What about me? What about my family here?
He: We won't move far away. We can visit them a few times a month.
She: That's on your schedule. What about my schedule? Maybe I want to see my family more often than a few times a month. Well, you can move if you want to but I'm staying here.

And notice I didn't even bring up the issue of children:

He: Let's start a family.
She: I don't want children.
He: Why didn't you tell me this before we got married?
She: You never asked.

Girls?
She does not believe you have her best interest at heart. She wants to feel taken care of. She wants to know that you appreciate that the things that matter to her matter to you.

The children issue is a big one and it should have been discussed before marriage. You're both in the wrong here. You for not making it clear you wanted kids and her for not making it clear she doesn't want them. So, if you have them, be prepared to raise them.

I would suggest marriage counseling.
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Old 07-17-2010, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 30,750,520 times
Reputation: 14583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
There are always 2 sides to a story. We are hearing half of it. There is probably another side and I would hesitate to pass judgement because no one really knows what is happening.
Actually, there are three sides. His side, her side and the truth.
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