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Old 07-16-2010, 09:29 PM
 
7,816 posts, read 10,720,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
....it was not a mutual agreement.
Of course it was.

June would come down on the side of saying that is WAS a "mutual agreement." --And it was certainly "relational." -The fact that man didn't live up to their "end of the bargain" does not discount the relational aspect that existed. Regardless of whether there was a power differential involved, or not, there was still a pre-existing "relationship" between God and Adam and Eve. God loved and cared about His own creation; He enabled them to reside in a "paradise." --There were also consequences for the deviation in that relationship: A loving God would thereby orchestrate the ways and means by which to "draw back" his own creation unto Himself. Not quite so "harsh" after all! More "loving."

~Which He clearly did. Hence, "Exodus." (How did God "draw back" His own creation unto Himself?)

Uh huh.


Take gentle care.

 
Old 07-16-2010, 09:49 PM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,583,824 times
Reputation: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
*Ouch!*

Okay, so June already understood that the OT "God" was pretty harsh, and it would not be a stretch of even "just June's" imagination to say that mankind was 'judged' ("infracted") by God in purely "black and white" and very reductionistic terms.

--But the fact still remains, according to the OP: How is one to know with such certainty the Jesus is "Lord" and God?

P.S. June just wants to state for the record that the OT "God" was a whole lot more harsh in his "infracting" than "just June" could ever be! (At least June can dole out "warnings" and God didn't have to concern Himself with stuff like "copyright" issues, ya know!?)
The heart...it takes the kind of love only a Creator could give...in order for ONE to die for the sin of mankind...his creation! This is what my "HEART" dictates...not by any doctrine or belief of men...and of this...I AM certain...this faith does not need to be AMEN'D by anyone but HIM!

May GOD Bless Us All...
 
Old 07-16-2010, 10:09 PM
 
697 posts, read 915,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
We can be confident that it is absolutely trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord.
What does this mean? Jesus is trustworthy, yes.

But Jesus does not appear to be the "it" in the sentence.
Who or what is "it: and how is "it" trustworthy, i.e. worthy of trust.
 
Old 07-17-2010, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,265 posts, read 34,485,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
*Ouch!*

Okay, so June already understood that the OT "God" was pretty harsh, and it would not be a stretch of even "just June's" imagination to say that mankind was 'judged' ("infracted") by God in purely "black and white" and very reductionistic terms.
God is unchanging, so the OT God is the same God as we have today, 100% identical in every way.
 
Old 07-17-2010, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,265 posts, read 34,485,629 times
Reputation: 10549
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Of course it was.

June would come down on the side of saying that is WAS a "mutual agreement." --And it was certainly "relational." -The fact that man didn't live up to their "end of the bargain" does not discount the relational aspect that existed. Regardless of whether there was a power differential involved, or not, there was still a pre-existing "relationship" between God and Adam and Eve. God loved and cared about His own creation; He enabled them to reside in a "paradise." --There were also consequences for the deviation in that relationship: A loving God would thereby orchestrate the ways and means by which to "draw back" his own creation unto Himself. Not quite so "harsh" after all! More "loving."

~Which He clearly did. Hence, "Exodus." (How did God "draw back" His own creation unto Himself?)

Uh huh.


Take gentle care.
It would be mutual only if Adam and Eve had a say in it. God told them what the rules were and they didn't have any say in the matter. It was not a negotiation, and Adam and Eve did not have any other option than to accept the rules of sovereign God.

Same enforcement of rules apply today. The rules have been revealed to us, and we don't have a say about cnaging them, we only have the choise to accept them or reject them, and if you reject, as Adam and Eve did, then there is a price to pay. God is just and he will enforce his own rules, because if he did not, it would make him a liar.
 
Old 07-17-2010, 11:18 AM
 
7,816 posts, read 10,720,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
God is unchanging, so the OT God is the same God as we have today, 100% identical in every way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It would be mutual only if Adam and Eve had a say in it. God told them what the rules were and they didn't have any say in the matter. It was not a negotiation, and Adam and Eve did not have any other option than to accept the rules of sovereign God.

Same enforcement of rules apply today. The rules have been revealed to us, and we don't have a say about cnaging them, we only have the choise to accept them or reject them, and if you reject, as Adam and Eve did, then there is a price to pay. God is just and he will enforce his own rules, because if he did not, it would make him a liar.
June is still wondering about the OP, as we are getting lost in Genesis here...(More than likely because June answered the questions in the analogy put forth by twin...Which, if they lead to an answer as regards the OP, June is all for!) June still contends that the God who placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden was a God who was relational, and seeking out a relationship with his creation. It was, to her way of understanding (faulty though it may be!) a mutually understood state of affairs. Had God been anything but a good and loving God, he would not have placed the two principle players of his own creation in a place of Paradise. The fact that they wandered away from his request does not negate or eradicate the original intent and mindset of your God.

As you stated, Finn, "God is unchanging." The God of the NT, namely Jesus, did enter into a mutally based agreement with mankind: Keep my words and "laws" to love one's neighbor/others as one would love oneself and you shall inherit the Kingdom of God; shall be saved/receive salvation and everlasting life. (More or less the same "deal" offered in Genesis, but this time, by a very different venue/message in the (divine) personhood of Jesus.

--But all that being said, June still doesn't understand, and can't see her way clear to understanding how the Jesus of the NT is "Lord" and beyond question "God." --She understands that people have been taught that, and raised within specific cultural systems (be it family, church, society) such that they would accept that, at times without question.

But if Jesus is truly the "trustworthy" God of all mankind, then the question in June's mind still remains:

~How do you know that!? --Because it's simply not as self-evident to June as the OP states.

Hence, her question.


Take gentle confusing care.

Last edited by june 7th; 07-18-2010 at 02:25 PM..
 
Old 07-17-2010, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,265 posts, read 34,485,629 times
Reputation: 10549
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
As you stated, Finn, "God is unchanging." The God of the NT, namely Jesus, did enter into a mutally based agreement with mankind
It becomes a mutual agreement if mankind accepts the terms, but many do not. When you accept Christ as your Lord and saviour, you enter a mutual agreement with God, and God will keep his word and grant you eternal life. If you reject the agreement, God will keep his word and deny eternal life.

Quote:
~How do you know that!? --Because it's simply not as self-evident to June as the OP states.
It is a matter of faith, and through faith comes assurance of God's existance, but try reading this: With all of the different religions, how can I know which one is correct?
 
Old 07-17-2010, 01:02 PM
 
7,816 posts, read 10,720,792 times
Reputation: 3452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
It is a matter of faith
Although June is not a "person of faith" she can't argue with the above.

June read the article. She doesn't tend to think that one's knowing that "Jesus is Lord and God" is any where quite as "logically based" as the article highlights. It's a convenient way/means by which to "prove" that Jesus is "God" but at the end of the day, it doesn't. The author was clever in applying what June would consider too much flawed logic by which he arrived at his "conclusion."

~But June does thank you, Finn, for posting the link and truly appreciates your having done so, whether she accepted the author's premise/line of reasoning, or not!.


Take gentle care.

Last edited by june 7th; 07-18-2010 at 02:27 PM..
 
Old 07-17-2010, 04:09 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,194,133 times
Reputation: 1308
Default Part deuce .....

June,
With all seriousness aside.....
http://http.cdnlayer.com/cf/images/smilies/onion/hypno.gif (broken link) you're getting sleepy .... sleepy..... "come into my parlor said the spider " ............... "gotchya"


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June,
I guess I "jumped the gun" when I mentioned about the plan.

From other posts...the perception is that beyond Adam001 and Eve001, God's went awol and the "term of service" was some hidden quest to find.........not so.


We know for a fact that there was other direct communication:
  • "Cain001",
  • "Abel001",
  • years later "Enoch001" (Enoch walked with God 300 years)
  • "Noah001"
    • Noah's wife001
  • Noah's 3 children
    • Shem, Ham and Japheth
      • and the wives of his three sons
(Don't forget the Garden of Eden [though off limits] was still in exisitance and visable until after the flood.)
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\

Adam and Eve had a perfect understanding of the "terms of service".

2 Samuel 7:28
O Sovereign LORD, you are God! Your words are trustworthy,


Which scenerio would you consider not trust worthy:
  1. God's words: "for when you eat of it you will surely die."
  2. Satan's words: "You will not surely die,"
And God should be accountable...

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

About God being a "angry God" in the OT. He can be if you're looking over your shoulder for it. Other OT descriptions are:
  • "Righteous" Ezra 9:15
  • "A faithful God" .."He is the Rock" .. "his works are perfect," .."all his ways are just." .. "who does no wrong," .. "upright" ... "just". Deuteronomy 32:4
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2 Samuel 7:28
O Sovereign LORD, you are God! Your words are trustworthy,

He kept his word with Adam and Eve before,... did his words become true after with Adam and Eve:
  • So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life."
Yes or No [all the snakes I'm aware of crawl on their belly]

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
  • I will put enmity between you and the woman,
Do you know what "enmity" means? Websters defines it as:
  • deep-seated dislike or ill will
  • hatred which may be open or concealed
  • hostility..suggests an enmity showing itself in attacks or aggression
  • hostility between the two nations
  • a natural or logical basis for one's hatred or dislike
  • a desire to avoid or reject
  • a clash of temperaments leading readily to hostility
  • antagonism between the brothers
  • animosity that led to revenge
  • bitter brooding over a wrong
See any of that today between man\woman, husband\ wife, brothers\sisters (sibblings), countries, races of people

2 Samuel 7:28
O Sovereign LORD, you are God! Your words are trustworthy,

\\\\\\\\\\\\ Part 3 next ////////////////////

More words from God that are trustworthy,

Hint: the Gospel in the OT

Last edited by twin.spin; 07-17-2010 at 04:18 PM.. Reason: spelling .... sorry for the length
 
Old 07-17-2010, 06:18 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,194,133 times
Reputation: 1308
Default part 3

2 Samuel 7:28
O Sovereign LORD, you are God! Your words are trustworthy,
----------------------------continued-----------------------------

So women...true or false:
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children."

Farmers \ gardners ... true or false:
"Cursed is the ground because of you...
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field"

So men and women ... true or false:
"through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life."

How about working for a living, does it come easy .. true or false:
"By the sweat of your brow, you will eat your food"

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

2 Samuel 7:28
O Sovereign LORD, you are God! Your words are trustworthy,
----------------------------------------------------------

God changes his object of attention and says:

and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

To whom is this "emnity" being said\applied to? several at once:
  • 1. to future human generations of Adam & Eve (and between your offspring and hers
  • 2. the "emnity" between those who have faith and those who do not believe
    • The "Sons [children] of God" Galatians 3:26
      You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,
    • "You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right!, Acts 13:10
Ever heard of the crusades...or jihad ... the witch trials ... social issues ...
  • 3. The emnity between God and humanity
    • all our righteous acts are like filthy rags Isaiah 64:6
    • All have turned aside, there is no one who does good, not even one. Psalm 14:3
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ The Gospel in the OT /////////////////

2 Samuel 7:28
O Sovereign LORD, you are God! Your words are trustworthy,



" he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

The description of the battle between Satan and Jesus, and God announces the winner..."he will crush your head"... Jesus crushes Satan!!!
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

This has been the difference since Adam and Eve...trusting in God's word that "he [Jesus] will crush your head [Satan] , and you [Satan] will strike his [Jesus] heel."

Either you trust that Jesus did your battle with enmity, or it's on your responsibility

2 Samuel 7:28
O Sovereign LORD, you are God! Your words are trustworthy,

Psalm 146:3
Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save.

Psalm 56:11
in God I trust;

Ezekiel 34:10
" 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them."

Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way;

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John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;

Matthew 9:36
"When he [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd."


Jesus is trustworthy......

How do we know .... God's word says!


Psalm 40:4
Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods.

Psalm 84:12
O LORD Almighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you.


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ June's trustworthy message from God ///////////////////////////
Proverbs 22:19
"So that your trust may be in the LORD, I teach you today, even you." ....

Isaiah 12:2
Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD, is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation."

Isaiah 25:9
In that day they will say, "Surely this is our God; we trusted in him, and he saved us. This is the LORD, we trusted in him; let us rejoice and be glad in his salvation."

John 14:1 Trust in God ; trust also in me.






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