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Old 07-18-2010, 05:06 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,164,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
See!? June knew it....She just KNEW IT! There's a "trick" quesiton somewhere in here!.....

--Except June is wide awake, Twin, as she's 'onto you!'

Uh, twin, my friend? Not that it's June's place (atheist though she may be) to say so, but if June were to try to convince a "just June" atheist like herself, she'd be talking about "Old Covenant" and "New Covenant" in terms of the OP....You see, despite what you all want June to believe, you HAVE TO connect the two. It makes no sense, otherwise. You can't have a "banning" and vindictive God in the OT, and then suddenly have the loving presence of Jesus "trustworthy 'Lord' and God" in the NT!



P.S. June loves ya, Twin!
Ah June,

You are so correct ... "You can't have a "banning" and vindictive God in the OT, and then suddenly have the loving presence of Jesus "trustworthy 'Lord' and God" in the NT!"...

That was my point. God or Jesus didn't switch gears from OT to NT.

This is the law....

Jeremiah 17:10
"I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve."

Jeremiah 21:14
I will punish you as your deeds deserve, declares the LORD.

Ezekiel 16:59
" 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant.

***(notice June Ezekiel 16:59, who is the guilty party of not keeping the covenant [terms], ... not God )****

\\\\\\\\\\\\\NT examples of the law////////////////

Romans 3:19
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

2 Thessalonians 1:8
He willpunish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.



\\\\\\\\\\\\OT examples of God's mercy toward believers \ the chosen //////////

**the point being made here is the key difference is faith\belief or prayer from a believer ... not about decision theolgy ...OK **
Psalm 103:10
he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.

Psalm 6:2
Be merciful to me, LORD, for I am faint; O LORD, heal me, for my bones are in agony.

Psalm 78:38
Yet he was merciful; he forgave their iniquities and did not destroy them. Time after time he restrained his anger and did not stir up his full wrath.

Jeremiah 3:12
Go, proclaim this message toward the north: " 'Return, faithless Israel,' declares the LORD, 'I will frown on you no longer, for I am merciful,'

Daniel 9:9
The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him;

\\\\\\\\\\\\NT examples of God's mercy, love toward believers \ the chosen //////////

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

1 John 5:10
Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.

Acts 13:39
Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Have a good day, June.

 
Old 07-18-2010, 06:20 PM
 
Location: New England
32,221 posts, read 21,094,471 times
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Twin how do you account for how the Lord dealt with Adam and Cain in comparison to how man was dealt with under the law .

I believe what you see under the Old Covenant is the principle of reaping what we sow .


God revealed to the world who He really was through the man Christ Jesus. There is no disputing this .
Jesus Himself said if you have seen me you have seen the Father ,now show me by the scriptures what you see in the life of Jesus(God manifested in the flesh) that resembled anything close to what we perceive to be God under the Old Covenant.

You have to ask the question then what was it the world was seeing when they saw Jesus , a man with a beard ? a good man ? or was it really the true nature and character of God making Himself known to the world through the man Christ Jesus ? , such as seeking the lost , coming to save life rather than destroying it , setting the captives free , recovering the sight of the blind, setting at liberty those who are oppressed and to show His favor to a broken world .

God is not a schizophrenic or 3 different gods , good god , bad god .
 
Old 07-18-2010, 06:23 PM
 
7,811 posts, read 10,700,409 times
Reputation: 3443
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Ah June,

You are so correct ... "You can't have a "banning" and vindictive God in the OT, and then suddenly have the loving presence of Jesus "trustworthy 'Lord' and God" in the NT!"...

That was my point. God or Jesus didn't switch gears from OT to NT.
*Phew!* For a moment there, June thought that we "weren't on the same page" (imagine that!) or that perhaps June was completely misunderstanding your point(s.) (Oh, like THAT could possibly happen, right?)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
This is the law....

Jeremiah 17:10
"I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve."

Jeremiah 21:14
I will punish you as your deeds deserve, declares the LORD.
Interesting that you should cite Jeremiah, as June had begun to read Jeremiah just out of idle curiosity....But June still contends that there is such a discrepancy between your OT God, and your NT God that in order to regard Jesus as "Lord" and "God" there would somehow have to exist a 'bridge' (if you will) between BOTH "Gods."

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Ezekiel 16:59
" 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant.

***(notice June Ezekiel 16:59, who is the guilty party of not keeping the covenant [terms], ... not God )****
June does not question or doubt that Ezekiel is the "guilty party" in not keeping God's covenant in the above post, however, June continues to have a tremendous amount of difficulty reconciling these two "Gods" as portrayed in the bible...Especially given the fact that there are more than just "numerous" examples that Christians site whereby Jesus 'fulfilled' the OT prophesies...

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
2 Thessalonians 1:8
He willpunish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Although June can't find the exact passage at the present time, there is an excellent passage in Acts in which someone asks "how can they know God if they haven't been told about Him?"

If anyone can find the exact passage, June would be grateful, as she always liked that particular passage...It seemed to make a whole lot of sense to her little atheist mindset...


Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
**the point being made here is the key difference is faith\belief or prayer from a believer ... not about decision theolgy ...OK **
Psalm 103:10
he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.
Okay, but how do you, as a believer, reconcile the above with what you have posted earlier, about the personhood of the God portrayed in the OT? He wasn't portrayed as the most kind, forgiving, let alone compassionate God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Psalm 78:38
Yet he was merciful; he forgave their iniquities and did not destroy them. Time after time he restrained his anger and did not stir up his full wrath.

*phew!* Merciful God (and hopefully "trustworthy" one) at last?


Jeremiah 3:12
Go, proclaim this message toward the north: " 'Return, faithless Israel,' declares the LORD, 'I will frown on you no longer, for I am merciful,'

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
examples of God's mercy, love toward believers \ the chosen
So the nonbelievers aren't ALSO "the chosen" due to what Jesus accomplished on the cross? Isn't it all inclusive; that what was done for one was done for all? --That it would seem to make sense that it would especially be done to prove to nonbelievers that Jesus was God, and thus, also "trustworthy?"

He couldn't have done it just for believers, otherwise it would have been a very limited state of affairs, and a somewhat hopeless one, at that. Nope. June's thinking it was done for all, not just the "believers."

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Refer to above comment. June has the feeling that if (IF!) your God exists, June (along with everyone else) was forgiven at Calvary...

No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
^^ Hence the very nature of June's initial question as regards the OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Have a good day, June.
...And a good day/evening to you, too, twin! You are a very good and decent sport for putting up with the likes of a "just June" and what are no doubt her rather ignorant (yet persistent) questions.


Take gentle care, twin.spin!
 
Old 07-19-2010, 06:28 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,836,760 times
Reputation: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
June asks this in all sincerity, as it is one thing that she has always wanted to know, but been unable to understand, or "connect the dots" to:

How do you know? --Not based on what you've been taught, or what you've read, or what you've learned. In other words, had you never grown up where and how you did, if you had never heard about Jesus, or been taught/educated about, or raised within a church culture, how would you know?

It's something June has always wondered about...




Take gentle 'thanks in advance' care.

June, I know because True Love is always trustworthy to accept as Lord.
 
Old 07-19-2010, 09:27 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,836,760 times
Reputation: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmalltownKSgirl View Post
What does this mean? Jesus is trustworthy, yes.

But Jesus does not appear to be the "it" in the sentence.
Who or what is "it: and how is "it" trustworthy, i.e. worthy of trust.

True Love
 
Old 07-19-2010, 09:52 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,164,770 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Twin how do you account for how the Lord dealt with Adam and Cain in comparison to how man was dealt with under the law .


God revealed to the world who He really was through the man Christ Jesus. There is no disputing this .
Jesus Himself said if you have seen me you have seen the Father ,now show me by the scriptures what you see in the life of Jesus(God manifested in the flesh) that resembled anything close to what we perceive to be God under the Old Covenant.

You have to ask the question then what was it the world was seeing when they saw Jesus , a man with a beard ? a good man ? or was it really the true nature and character of God making Himself known to the world through the man Christ Jesus ? , such as seeking the lost , coming to save life rather than destroying it , setting the captives free , recovering the sight of the blind, setting at liberty those who are oppressed and to show His favor to a broken world .

God is not a schizophrenic or 3 different gods , good god , bad god .
pcamps,
I do not know who you are refering to as "we".
What do you perceive to be God under the Old Covenant ?
--------------------------------------------------


What does the world see ... from it's rebellious \ unbelieving view:

It attempts to hid from God, for because of what .... God's love?
"I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid." Gen 3:10

Attempts to shun accountability when confronted and
directly or indirectly blames God for their unbelief \ actions
The man said, "The woman you put here with meóshe gave me..." Gen 3:12
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." Gen 3:13
"he [cain] replied. 'Am I my brother's keeper?' " Gen 4:9

Gets angry instead of repenting that \ when God doesn't look favorable on them but does on the rigteous
The LORD looked with favor on Abel .....
"The LORD looked ...on Cain and his offering he [God] did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast." Gen 4:4-5

Does not heed God's loving warning about sin\unbelief:
" But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it." Gen 4:7

"but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

"but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

The world doesn't understand this and calls it unfair:

Despite all are sinners:
  • God look favorably on Abel, not on Cain
  • Only 8 were saved in the ark
  • God chose only Abraham
  • God loved Jacob, hated Esau
  • God only chose Israel
  • God will allow only those who have a confessing faith into heaven
We know this true because of the responce the world gives to this question: Does God pervert justice? Does the Almighty pervert what is right?Job 8:3

Intead of listening and repenting, the unbeliever does everything else but:

Complains:
Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear."

Becomes arrogant:
"The LORD said [to Cain]: 'You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.' "
what does Cain do

'So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod... Cain was then building a city" (Does that sound like a restless wanderer, or a guy who says...restless wanderer? Make me. ... just to prove it, I'm not going to pitch a tent, or build me a house...but a city. And to rub it in, I'll name it after my kid...the one from you)










 
Old 07-19-2010, 11:24 AM
 
Location: New England
32,221 posts, read 21,094,471 times
Reputation: 2274
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
pcamps,
I do not know who you are refering to as "we".
What do you perceive to be God under the Old Covenant ?
--------------------------------------------------


What does the world see ... from it's rebellious \ unbelieving view:

It attempts to hid from God, for because of what .... God's love?
"I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid." Gen 3:10
Let me say this first it was sinners that were turning to him , read the gospels and see for yourself , it was the religious who were rejecting him.

Adam hid because of his guilty conscience which he inherited from partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil , and from then on man because of his guilty conscience as viewed God as against him , which is why Adam went and hid.This is how christianity views God today, God for them and against the sinner.

Yes God did drive Adam out of the garden for his sake(man's) ,



22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. Genesis 3.

Can you imagine living for ever having the knowledge of good and evil.

So began the plan of God to reconcile man back to Himself

21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. Genesis 3

Christianity is keeping the unbeliever in sin by pointing man to his sin rather than to Christ , the unbeliever knows only to live by the knowledge of good and evil (and unfortunately much of christianity), and that guilty conscience knowledge tells him God is against him and to pile on the agony for him christianity pointing him to his sin rather than Christ, adds to mans agony .

John the Baptist said "Behold the Lamb of God" and not behold your sin.
 
Old 07-19-2010, 11:32 AM
 
Location: New England
32,221 posts, read 21,094,471 times
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Dear June
Here is a great example from the mouth of Jesus Himself of how He is to believers and unbelievers alike.But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Why does He say love your enemies ?

Because He does.

He also said to the woman caught in adultery "neither do i condemn you" before He said "go sin no more".

Last edited by pcamps; 07-19-2010 at 11:50 AM..
 
Old 07-19-2010, 11:38 AM
 
Location: New England
32,221 posts, read 21,094,471 times
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Twinspin i would like you to show me by the scriptures, anything of the life of Jesus that bore any resemblence to how you believe God is depicted in the Old Covenant scriptures.
 
Old 07-19-2010, 12:02 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,164,770 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th;15096038



[COLOR=black
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\[/color]

June does not question or doubt that Ezekiel is the "guilty party" in not keeping God's covenant in the above post, however, June continues to have a tremendous amount of difficulty reconciling these two "Gods" as portrayed in the bible...Especially given the fact that there are more than just "numerous" examples that Christians site whereby Jesus 'fulfilled' the OT prophesies...

June, again the beginning of your difficulty is that you view God differently from OT to NT. There was as much compassion for sinners as there is seriouness about sin in OT and NT.

Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first [Adam\Eve] to last [whomever that is], just as it is written [quoting OT]: "The righteous will live by faith."

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\

Although June can't find the exact passage at the present time, there is an excellent passage in Acts in which someone asks "how can they know God if they haven't been told about Him?"

Romans 10:14
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?


If anyone can find the exact passage, June would be grateful, as she always liked that particular passage...It seemed to make a whole lot of sense to her little atheist mindset...

God however, answers the "because I reason that not everybody has had heard or been given the opportunity...I therefore determine that then the solution is ____________ (fill in the blank)

God's answer:

Romans 10:14 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Romans 10:17But I ask: Did they not hear?

God's answer:
Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.

(I find it curious that those who who argue "all means all" rarely quote this passage... probablybecause that would mean God can say .."no excuse" and that's the point )

Which explains the continuing non-stop UR controversy. God answers Isaiah with "But not all the Israelites accepted the good news"...so who's fault is that, God's?

That same message God said went to all the earth. And guess what...not all accepted the good news... so who's fault is that, God's?

Okay, but how do you, as a believer, reconcile the above with what you have posted earlier, about the personhood of the God portrayed in the OT? He wasn't portrayed as the most kind, forgiving, let alone compassionate God...

He was June...what more can I say or point to.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

*phew!* Merciful God (and hopefully "trustworthy" one) at last?

Jeremiah 3:12
Go, proclaim this message toward the north: " 'Return, faithless Israel,' declares the LORD, 'I will frown on you no longer, for I am merciful,'

To whom did the Lord speak this to:
Israel was divided...the Northern Kingdom and Southern Kingdom. God was still calling the northern kingdom back to faith. This invitation wasn't to the southern because they had faith.

**Demographically the northern kingdom was 10 tribes, the southern 2 tribes**



Do you know what happened (eventually) to the Northern Kingdom:
  • they did not heed God's call (based on mercy) to return to faith
  • they remained faithless
  • Because of their faithlessness (nothing else determined it)
    • God's wrath remained on them
    • they were thrown into Babylonian captivity
    • they were never heard from again
God does the same in the NT
  • God calls the faithless to repent
  • many will not heed God's call (based on mercy) to return to faith
  • Because of their faithlessness (nothing else determines it)
    • God's wrath remaines on them
    • many will thrown into "Babylonian captivity" ..hell.
    • they were never heard from again
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

So the nonbelievers aren't ALSO "the chosen" due to what Jesus accomplished on the cross? No. "the chosen" is based on those who places their faith to what Jesus accomplished on the cross.


Isn't it all inclusive; that what was done for one was done for all? --That it would seem to make sense that it would especially be done to prove to nonbelievers that Jesus was God, and thus, also "trustworthy?"

Just like there was a Southern Kingdom remnant...that eventually a remnant of that survived the next captivity which Christ linage came from (only because of the covenant God made...nothing else), so will it be in the NT

Romans 11:5
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace
Matthew 22:14
"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
John 10:9
I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

He couldn't have done it just for believers, otherwise it would have been a very limited state of affairs, and a somewhat hopeless one, at that. Nope. June's thinking it was done for all, not just the "believers."

June, the objective was done for all, However the objective doesn't save. The subjective is the what will allow heaven as residency ... nothing else.
John 3:16
John 3:36

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Refer to above comment. June has the feeling that if (IF!) your God exists, June (along with everyone else) was forgiven at Calvary...

No? Everyone was forgiven...Refer to above comment

...And a good day/evening to you, too, twin! You are a very good and decent sport for putting up with the likes of a "just June" and what are no doubt her rather ignorant (yet persistent) questions.


Take gentle care, twin.spin!
No problamo,
Same to you June.

Last edited by twin.spin; 07-19-2010 at 12:11 PM..
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