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Old 07-21-2010, 12:44 PM
 
Location: USA
5,498 posts, read 1,998,447 times
Reputation: 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I am really interested in hearing a response to this myself...thanks Pleroo.
It's something I've been wondering about for some time now. There's another saying attributed to Jesus that was recently brought to my attention: "Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me." It seems Jesus was much less concerned with our believing in him than present day Christianity is. If he really said this, then it appears his concern is with us knowing the true nature of the one "who sent him", the nature of the one Jesus called our Father.

Anyway, I hope the question doesn't get lost in the shuffle, and that it's not too far off June's intended purpose for her thread.
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:14 PM
 
22,850 posts, read 10,726,454 times
Reputation: 3851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Hi Ilene. I don't think I've ever said this because I don't post much, but I lurk here often and I was really happy for you when I realized that you had come out of the torment of believing in ET. Having been a believer in ET for many, many years I know personally what an incredible burden was lifted from me when I stopped believing it. So I'm grateful for you that you've come to a different understanding.

I also wanted to address what you wrote above. I know Christy has already responded that she does not agree that she has the nature of Jesus Christ, but putting that aside for just a moment (hope you don't mind Christy) I'd like to ask you something:

If Christy has the nature of Christ, why is it important for her to believe in him? Jesus reportedly called himself the "way, truth and life". If Christy believes that "love/nature" is the way to "salvation" (even though her understanding of "salvation" is living in love in the here and now without concern for an after life), why is it important for her to call that way/nature/love "Jesus"?

I'm not challenging you so I hope it doesn't sound that way, but am truly interested in hearing your (and anyone else's) thoughts.

Pleroo
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I am really interested in hearing a response to this myself...thanks Pleroo.
In my opinion . . . it isn't necessary . . . you both already "believe on" Jesus (as that term SHOULD be interpreted) as represented by your responsiveness to the inner promptings (Holy Spirit within ALL human consciousnesses . . . since His rebirth as Spirit). It is this inner prompting that you accept or reject as the "believe on" requirement and is revealed in the "fruit" of "love of god and each other." The belief in and love of God (which you deny) inheres in the acceptance of a morality beyond self . . . since true believers in the cosmic accident genesis would have no conceivable need to make such distinctions. Accidents are purposeless and all their actions or inactions are irrelevant. All pious external proclamations of belief are irrelevant if this inner acceptance does not really exist. However, the harmonic resonance with Jesus' consciousness is enhanced and much stronger when this external acknowledgment exists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Mystic, I'm pretty much in the same boat as Christy right now as far as where my beliefs about god are at. But, I have to tell you, your post really made me take a step back and ponder. Very interesting take on it. Thanks for sharing.
If you have any familiarity (as Christy does) with the myriad oral traditions, legends, myths, scriptures, anthropological and archeological research, etc. . . . the template is quite striking and the evolution quite clear.
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:32 PM
 
603 posts, read 351,119 times
Reputation: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Instead of asking just some of the ETer's, let's ask all of them.

ETer's, please score the questions using the following point scale.

0 = No
1 = Sometimes
2 = Often
3 = Yes

Do you:

1. Do you secretly wish you could light all the UR's on fire? Add an additional point if you grind your teeth while having this thought.

2. Do you find yourself thinking about bad people (UR's in particular) going to a place called Hell? Add an additional two points if you dream about it.

3. Do you store matches and gasoline cans in your house? Add three points if stored in your bedroom next to your bible.

4. Are you the first one to run outside when the firetruck passes by? Add a point if if get in your car and follow the truck.

5. Do you find yourself sitting and gazing intently into a roaring fireplace? Add an additional three points if you do this during the summer months.

Score card tally:

0 = Safe
1 - 5 = Border line
6 - 10= Unsafe
Over 10 = Check yourself into the ER, now!
Houston, we have a problem. I believe in UR but scored an 11. Help me.
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 2,663,252 times
Reputation: 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
It's something I've been wondering about for some time now. There's another saying attributed to Jesus that was recently brought to my attention: "Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me." It seems Jesus was much less concerned with our believing in him than present day Christianity is. If he really said this, then it appears his concern is with us knowing the true nature of the one "who sent him", the nature of the one Jesus called our Father.

Anyway, I hope the question doesn't get lost in the shuffle, and that it's not too far off June's intended purpose for her thread.
I'd say you're on to something there!
Jesus said that the flesh profiteth nothing. His fleshly ministry is finished. Now He is arising in sons and daughters around the world. It was His Spirit that we must hear in OURSELVES today. A Christ at a distance cannot save you. Only Christ within you can save you.

Blessings,
brian
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,852 posts, read 3,074,947 times
Reputation: 776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
It's something I've been wondering about for some time now. There's another saying attributed to Jesus that was recently brought to my attention: "Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me." It seems Jesus was much less concerned with our believing in him than present day Christianity is. If he really said this, then it appears his concern is with us knowing the true nature of the one "who sent him", the nature of the one Jesus called our Father.

Anyway, I hope the question doesn't get lost in the shuffle, and that it's not too far off June's intended purpose for her thread.
I think we may be waiting a goooood looooong time for a plausible response to that one Pleroo.

And I agree with your assessment above....Christianity today wastes so much precious time on their inane doctrine and dogma which places more importance on how one does Christianity, the correct manner in which one does it, than actually living a life that is worthy of being called a Christ follower.
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:36 PM
 
5,501 posts, read 2,381,961 times
Reputation: 5118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Being an ex-Christian myself...you have a very valid point June. Also, being unbiased in matters biblical...it is clear that the teachings of UR and ET are both valid...and contained within the biblical writings. Does this cause confusion? Of course it does. There are many issues in the bible that are not only contradictory but extremely confusing, whether one wants to be HONEST and acknowledge that fact or not, especially to those who are first learning and so, they rely on others to teach them what the biblical writings say. By relying on others, one is only receiving their opinion/interpretation of what the scriptures say.

So, why is there so much bickering on issues that could go either way? I will tell you why...because opinions/interpretations (and that is all we are REALLY sharing here on CD) are like...(well you know where I'm going with this)....everyone has one and everyone thinks THEIR OPINION/INTERPRETATION is the RIGHT ONE and they will proceed to condemn anyone who provides any information that is contrary.

Now with that being said, will this particular issue ever be resolved or, for that matter, any contradictory issue in scripture? Absolutely not! Because what most Christians don't understand, is that their particular beliefs are a product of their environment as they were growing up, i.e., their parents, pastors, preachers, etc., or of the pastors, preachers, teachers who taught them later in life. This then becomes their personal doctrine and dogma that they will not waver from. Most Christians WILL NOT take the time to CRITICALLY EXAMINE their beliefs unbiasedly by looking at all sides of the issue and not just the one they already believe in...most will only look for evidence that confirms their current belief system...THIS IS A FACT!

Unlike most Christians, I DID take the time required to CRITICALLY EXAMINE my beliefs (especially after seeing the multitude of contradictory issues in the bible) by studying ancient archeology, ancient history, ancient mythology, ancient comparative religions, astrotheology, the origins of religious beliefs, the origin of the bible, etc...and it led me not only completely away from ET but from religion itself altogether. When I understood exactly where it all originated and how it all evolved to what it is today...it was completely untenable to hold onto any kind of biblical belief whatsoever and this not only holds true for Christianity but for any religious beliefs.

Now...don't shoot the messenger because I do believe there is something higher than myself...but I can freely admit that I don't know what that is and neither does anyone else...whether they want to be honest and admit that to themselves or not. I am like Thomas, I will have to see it to believe it and if there is a God and he holds that against me...then so be it...but I am pretty confident that NONE OF US has any clue who or what God/the higher power/the source of all (for lack of a better term) is.

There is one thing that I did take away from my years of Christianity and that is to LOVE ALL...treating others the way I want to be treated, helping my fellow man the best way I know how, doing my best to make this a better place to be not only for me and others that I come in contact with but for future generations. Not focusing on or worrying about what will happen after I take my last breath but living in the NOW...LOVING IN THE NOW. Why is it that so many focus on what happens in an alleged afterlife but never on what is happening in this present life, which in my opinion, is the ONLY life we have. Why do others WASTE so much precious time focusing on things that do not really matter NOW...things that in NO WAY enhance your living experience or anyones elses, for that matter, NOW?

To be completely honest with all of you, when I hear anyone speak about ET, it just makes me cringe because I know how completely destructive that type of teaching is...it does not in any way, shape, form or fashion show that God loves anyone. Unconditional love is just that...unconditional. How can you show love when you are teaching condemnation and fear? Teaching anyone that they will be burned eternally for not obeying, following and worshipping God sends the completely WRONG message that Jesus tried to convey and the only people you will attact with this type of message are those who are afraid...there is NO LOVE involved in this.

So what I think June is trying to convey is that there are many other things Jesus taught Christians should be doing and focusing on and that his main theme was LOVE...being true servants to those around us, helping one another, loving one another, living peacefully with one another, instead of all the bickering, arguing, judgment and condemnation that is present when contradictory biblical issues that CANNOT NOW nor EVER WILL BE resolved ensue. Let's live and let live, agree to disagree and start speaking about and sharing with one another what we can all do and are doing presently to LOVE and help our fellow man.

OK...I got a tad long winded and I'm off of my soapbox now...ya'll have a GREAT DAY!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
See!!

I, too, left the faith I once loved so much, because I could not reconcile my thoughts about what the bible said, and what Jesus taught,,,VS. what the religous leaders of my day were telling me. It was not even on the same playing field.

You have done what Stefan Molyneux said:


"To see the farm, is to leave the farm"

Once a person sees how captive they are to their upbringing, societal teachings called education, and others who have been taught the same way,,,,the picture becomes quite clear. See the farm. Not only that, but WHO is the farmer?? Once this has been seen, and the farmer revealed, it is time to leave it.

I see Jesus leading me. He is my Shepherd. Out, past the farm, and to the green pastures, and beside the still waters. He set me free, and restored my soul. That IS His message.

You now have the teachings of Jesus embedded into your soul:



And I agree with you. Your post has made an impact on me. No longer am I going to focus on destruction, of beliefs, and instead focus on loving others more completely and unselfishly.

Thank you Christygirl.

And thank you June for this topic and your loving comments made to me personally.

Peace be with you, and love to all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
So...Legoman...do tell...understanding your same scenerio...what would YOUR! love for June if she were to be burning in torment?...what would YOUR love do for her?...huh?..what will your YOUR! love for June do for her be it you find out you were wrong about having a second chance after you die...? HUH?...answer me that!

(keep in mind I do not believe in torment..I believe in Death...done...dead...soul dead.)

and the BLUE highlighted part above...that is a lie! I just love how you accuse us of the very thing you do to us yourself!!

and the dark blue highlighted part above...that is a lie! again...here you are twisting our motive for the warnings we give to June and YOU! and all those who belive a lie!..because we do not want you to be separated from God forever! That's why!!!...and THAT! is REAL! LOVE!
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Verna, if I were to find June in unending torment, I would do everything possible to relieve her of that torment. Admittedly I might not be able to do much as I am a finite human. But I would beg God for the rest of eternity to release June from unending torment. Even if I were in heaven, it would not be "heaven" if I knew that June was suffering endlessly and IMHO needlessly.

I am glad you do not believe in eternal torment.

WHOA. Slow down Verna before you accuse me of lying. Did you understand what I was saying? I wasn't accusing you or even most people of doing the part highlighted in red. What I said is that ETers will fall into one of three beliefs: 1. they are sad but unable to help those tormented, 2. they forget those who are tormented, OR 3. they will be glad that some are tormented because it is justice. (also NOTE I was talking about what some believe happens in the after life in heaven, not right now).

I'm not saying you believe #3, but I know for a fact that some on this very forum believe #3. Just last week sciotamicks posted that the saints would be rejoicing with God over the endless torments of the lost. It is very disturbing that someone would think this.


Again Verna, before you accuse of lying, try to understand what I said. This is what I wrote:
If that was really your fate, wouldn't your three friends be doing everything they could to get you out of that situation? Yet their own beliefs show that they can ultimately do nothing for you once you are in endless torment. Love does not overcome all in the ET belief system.

While it is quite possible June's three friends are doing everything they can right now to help June see the light, according to their own beliefs (and your beliefs), there will come a day when it will no longer be possible to help June - June will be resigned to her fate whether that is eternal torment or annihilation. At that point no amount of LOVE will help June. Under this belief system LOVE no longer overcomes after a certain point.

That is what I was saying. Please keep the accusations of lying to yourself when you do not understand what was said.

Peace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
That's what I was talking about in my earlier post (the lies). They come up with all kinds of claims to smear believers when they full well know it is a lie. I would like for one of them to quote a believer saying that they take pleasure in thiking about others in hell. However, I will not ask them to prove it, because it would only start another argument. Yesterday one of them insisted that he has NEVER seen a believer talk about the good news, and he demanded me to show a quote where a believer talked about God's love. I did (the forum is full of such quotes), but he still pretended that as if no one had ever said such things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Finn - Sciotamicks (a staunch ET believer) said this himself:

"God's enemies are regarded by the saints as their enemies, and when the day of probation is past, their mind shall be so entirely one with God's, that they shall rejoice in witnessing visibly the judicial vindication of God's righteousness in sinners' punishment"

This was in context of those being tormented in the presence of the lamb, in this thread: Tormented (ET style) In His Presence

If you don't agree with this, then I am glad. Take it up with sciotamicks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, you take it up with him and try to figure out the context. Will you quit trying to make it sound like all believers take pleasure in thinking about people going to hell. It it a lie. Thank you.
[quote=Verna Perry;15134181]
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Verna, if I were to find June in unending torment, I would do everything possible to relieve her of that torment. Admittedly I might not be able to do much as I am a finite human. But I would beg God for the rest of eternity to release June from unending torment. Even if I were in heaven, it would not be "heaven" if I knew that June was suffering endlessly and IMHO needlessly.

I am glad you do not believe in eternal torment.

WHOA. Slow down Verna before you accuse me of lying. Did you understand what I was saying? I wasn't accusing you or even most people of doing the part highlighted in red. What I said is that ETers will fall into one of three beliefs: 1. they are sad but unable to help those tormented, 2. they forget those who are tormented, OR 3. they will be glad that some are tormented because it is justice. (also NOTE I was talking about what some believe happens in the after life in heaven, not right now).

I'm not saying you believe #3, but I know for a fact that some on this very forum believe #3. Just last week sciotamicks posted that the saints would be rejoicing with God over the endless torments of the lost. It is very disturbing that someone would think this.


Again Verna, before you accuse of lying, try to understand what I said. This is what I wrote:
If that was really your fate, wouldn't your three friends be doing everything they could to get you out of that situation? Yet their own beliefs show that they can ultimately do nothing for you once you are in endless torment. Love does not overcome all in the ET belief system.

While it is quite possible June's three friends are doing everything they can right now to help June see the light, according to their own beliefs (and your beliefs), there will come a day when it will no longer be possible to help June - June will be resigned to her fate whether that is eternal torment or annihilation. At that point no amount of LOVE will help June. Under this belief system LOVE no longer overcomes after a certain point.

That is what I was saying. Please keep the accusations of lying to yourself when you do not understand what was said.

Peace.
[/quote]


...OH! Believe me legoman, I've been here to long for you to be able to pull the wool over my eyes!...trying to pretend to be saying something other than what you are truly saying!..I am well aware of EVERYTHING! you have ever said here on this forum...EVERYTHING!...and it ain't all roses, love and posies either!...YOU! keep YOUR! accusations to YOURSELF! thank you! Who do you think you are...? Like you know what is in the hearts of those who warn others of WHAT GOD SAYS IN HIS WORD! We only know what we read in Scripture...and believe it to be truth!...and God said warn!...SO WE DO! SO THERE! DEAL WITH IT! But stop claiming things about us that are not true!

in response to the bolded umber above...

SO WOULD I LEGOMAN!!!!!!! SO WOULD I!!!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
He talked about believers in general, not just one person's opinon. When he was challenged, he admitted he has heard only one person say it, and even that seemed to have been taken out of context. Don't defend the undefendable. Read his post. I believe it is still there.

It is a perfect example of the UR mud-slinging that is going on here on daily bases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, this is what he ACTUALLY said:

This is where love breaks down in the ET view. This is where love fails in the ET view. Because their love will simply be unable to do any thing for you, or will forget about you, or *horror of horrors* they will derive pleasure from your endless torment.

End of discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Sigh. Yes that is what I said. Notice I did not say or even imply all believers will get pleasure from seeing the endless torment of others.

Finn why do you insist on misconstruing what I said?!? Time and time again you do this, not just to me, but to anyone who opposes your view.

I gave you one example of a person who said they will rejoice with God as they see sinners. I have seen other people say this too, not just here but in other forums as well. Now I am not saying this is ALL believers or even the majority of believers. I am simply saying there are 3 views people take when asked about what they will think of those in eternal hell while they are sitting blissfully in heaven. Some say they will be sad about it. Some say they won't remember those in hell. And some say they will rejoice in their torment. No matter which of these 3 views you take, love has failed to overcome those in eternal torment, because love is not able to save them.

Now stop misconstruing and accusing me of things I did not say. It gets tiresome.

Sparrow, thankyou for your responses. At least one person understood what I meant.
ChristyGrl your testimony speaks so much volume that it leaves one really reviewing his/her life, "have I loved enough to make a worthy impact on this earth...my home, and everything that is in it"?

May God Bless Us All!
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:37 PM
 
603 posts, read 351,119 times
Reputation: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
__________________________________________________ _____________

Oh my! I had never heard of such a thing as a "Hell House" until I read about it in this thread. How sick!

Hell house

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hell houses are haunted attractions typically run by American, fundamentalist Christian churches or parachurch groups. These depict sin, the torments of the damned in Hell, and usually conclude with a depiction of heaven. They are most typically operated in the days preceding Halloween.
A hell house, like a conventional haunted-house attraction, is a space set aside in which actors attempt to frighten patrons with gruesome exhibits and scenes. The format is that the various scenes are presented as a series of short vignettes with a narrated guide. Unlike haunted houses, hell houses focus on occasions and effects of sin or the fate of unrepentant sinners in the afterlife. They are scheduled during the month of October to capitalize on the similarities between hell houses and haunted attractions.
The exhibits at a hell house often have a controversial tone and focus on sins that are also issues of concern to evangelicals in the United States. Hell houses frequently feature exhibits that depict sin and its consequences. Common examples include abortion, suicide,[1] use of alcoholic beverage and other recreational drugs, adultery and pre-marital sex, occultism, homosexuality, and Satanic ritual abuse. Hell houses typically emphasize the belief that anyone who does not accept Christ as their personal savior is condemned to Hell.
Heartsong, they have this every year around Halloween at Brookfield Assembly of God here in Wisconsin.

Guess what, this year I'm going. In fact, I'll have a picket sign(well maybe). Gotta memorize a bunch of UR verses and pray a lot before the event.

We must slay the dragon. Anyone that lives in Wisconsin wanna go with me?
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:41 PM
 
22,850 posts, read 10,726,454 times
Reputation: 3851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You attributed it to those with "ET view". I asked you to define who is included in the "ET view", so here is your change to define it. Thanks.
This is an asinine question. Those who BELIEVE in ET are included in the ET view!!!! The question is and remains which of the responses legoman listed would be YOURS?
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:47 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
2,933 posts, read 2,130,095 times
Reputation: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post
Houston, we have a problem. I believe in UR but scored an 11. Help me.
You're funny
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:49 PM
 
5,501 posts, read 2,381,961 times
Reputation: 5118
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This is an asinine question. Those who BELIEVE in ET are included in the ET view!!!! The question is and remains which of the responses legoman listed would be YOURS?
Hah! can't quite break through eh? just a friendly banter so as not to become so graved...
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